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	<title>Comments on: Following the Rules</title>
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	<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/</link>
	<description>Science Fiction &#38; Fantasy Author</description>
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		<title>By: A.R.Williams</title>
		<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>A.R.Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 09:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-60</guid>
		<description>All good rules.

I have many of the same rules. Another good one is to be careful about the types of writers you hang around.

If all the writers you hang around are talking about how they will write--someday--then most likely you are going to be one too.

Each writer has to devise their own schedule be it daily, weekly, or monthly. But if you never write--then you are not a writer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All good rules.</p>
<p>I have many of the same rules. Another good one is to be careful about the types of writers you hang around.</p>
<p>If all the writers you hang around are talking about how they will write&#8211;someday&#8211;then most likely you are going to be one too.</p>
<p>Each writer has to devise their own schedule be it daily, weekly, or monthly. But if you never write&#8211;then you are not a writer.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Crosshill</title>
		<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Crosshill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-51</guid>
		<description>We were just having a discussion of this over at Liberty Hall, so I posted a link to this post. Very interesting topic. I can definitely sympathize with points on both sides.

 I do know that I did some significant recutting on my WOTF story  before sending it out - I essentially added a whole parallel narrative that winds through the story - and it&#039;s my sole major sale to date. Who knows if it would have sold otherwise? Hard to tell with these things, but I don&#039;t think my first or second draft was publishable. I have also read the first and last drafts of another WOTF winner&#039;s story - the improvement was jaw-dropping, and there were 7 drafts in between spread over several months.

 But I think when the problem is clear cut enough - such as &#039;the beginning is slow&#039;, &#039;this character doesn&#039;t do anything&#039; or &#039;the ending is deus ex machina&#039;, there&#039;s value a &quot;fix&quot; rewrite can add. When it&#039;s pervasive - no character arc, no conflict, etc - then I&#039;d agree that a complete rewrite/redraft (&quot;eyes off the original&quot;) may be better. 

I sympathize with the point of view that too much rewriting slows you down and you turn out very little material - but what use is turning out dozens of stories that never sell? I feel like I learn a lot even when I rewrite a story to death, less when I write a new story and make the same old mistakes. It&#039;s my hope that what I&#039;m learning will reduce my need to rewrite in the future, since I do tend to plot out my stories vs. going by the seat of my pants.

In the end, it may depend on the particular writer&#039;s learning style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We were just having a discussion of this over at Liberty Hall, so I posted a link to this post. Very interesting topic. I can definitely sympathize with points on both sides.</p>
<p> I do know that I did some significant recutting on my WOTF story  before sending it out &#8211; I essentially added a whole parallel narrative that winds through the story &#8211; and it&#8217;s my sole major sale to date. Who knows if it would have sold otherwise? Hard to tell with these things, but I don&#8217;t think my first or second draft was publishable. I have also read the first and last drafts of another WOTF winner&#8217;s story &#8211; the improvement was jaw-dropping, and there were 7 drafts in between spread over several months.</p>
<p> But I think when the problem is clear cut enough &#8211; such as &#8216;the beginning is slow&#8217;, &#8216;this character doesn&#8217;t do anything&#8217; or &#8216;the ending is deus ex machina&#8217;, there&#8217;s value a &#8220;fix&#8221; rewrite can add. When it&#8217;s pervasive &#8211; no character arc, no conflict, etc &#8211; then I&#8217;d agree that a complete rewrite/redraft (&#8220;eyes off the original&#8221;) may be better. </p>
<p>I sympathize with the point of view that too much rewriting slows you down and you turn out very little material &#8211; but what use is turning out dozens of stories that never sell? I feel like I learn a lot even when I rewrite a story to death, less when I write a new story and make the same old mistakes. It&#8217;s my hope that what I&#8217;m learning will reduce my need to rewrite in the future, since I do tend to plot out my stories vs. going by the seat of my pants.</p>
<p>In the end, it may depend on the particular writer&#8217;s learning style.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad R. Torgersen</title>
		<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad R. Torgersen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-50</guid>
		<description>They way KKR and DWS explained it, was that if your first reader(s) spot significant or noteworthy problems with the story -- and you agree with those opinions -- the best course is to mine the original manuscript for the core character(s), concept(s), or idea(s) that make the story &lt;em&gt;matter,&lt;/em&gt; then go and write an entirely new story around these core item(s), paying attention to what you think went wrong the first time so you don&#039;t get it wrong the next time.

KKR and DWS are adamantly opposed to &quot;fixing&quot; stories via rewrite.  They believe stories cannot be &quot;fixed&quot; in this regard.  They believe that aspirants get too attached to the words, once they&#039;re committed to paper, and are holding themselves back by trying to endlessly salvage those words via rewrite when they ought to begin again from the start, and do new text.

Now, what do I believe personally?  At this point, because I am getting a lot of near misses -- like the WOTF Finalist that didn&#039;t win -- I&#039;m trying to step outside my comfort zone and see if maybe KKR and DWS are correct.  I feel like I need to move to a new level, or at least a new process.  Because I am absolutely the kind of aspirant who, once the words are on the page, is loathe to abandon them.  I am a habitual &quot;fixer&quot; and I have a hard time getting out of &quot;fix&quot; mode, especially when I have people telling me they see different problems with my stories.  I will fix and fix and fix and fix...  And get the same old rejections.  And I suspect KKR and DWS are correct: all I have done in the &quot;fixing&quot; is dumb down or lose the voice that was present when the story was first written.  I have genericized the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They way KKR and DWS explained it, was that if your first reader(s) spot significant or noteworthy problems with the story &#8212; and you agree with those opinions &#8212; the best course is to mine the original manuscript for the core character(s), concept(s), or idea(s) that make the story <em>matter,</em> then go and write an entirely new story around these core item(s), paying attention to what you think went wrong the first time so you don&#8217;t get it wrong the next time.</p>
<p>KKR and DWS are adamantly opposed to &#8220;fixing&#8221; stories via rewrite.  They believe stories cannot be &#8220;fixed&#8221; in this regard.  They believe that aspirants get too attached to the words, once they&#8217;re committed to paper, and are holding themselves back by trying to endlessly salvage those words via rewrite when they ought to begin again from the start, and do new text.</p>
<p>Now, what do I believe personally?  At this point, because I am getting a lot of near misses &#8212; like the WOTF Finalist that didn&#8217;t win &#8212; I&#8217;m trying to step outside my comfort zone and see if maybe KKR and DWS are correct.  I feel like I need to move to a new level, or at least a new process.  Because I am absolutely the kind of aspirant who, once the words are on the page, is loathe to abandon them.  I am a habitual &#8220;fixer&#8221; and I have a hard time getting out of &#8220;fix&#8221; mode, especially when I have people telling me they see different problems with my stories.  I will fix and fix and fix and fix&#8230;  And get the same old rejections.  And I suspect KKR and DWS are correct: all I have done in the &#8220;fixing&#8221; is dumb down or lose the voice that was present when the story was first written.  I have genericized the story.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Crosshill</title>
		<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Crosshill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Could you share any more detail on how they defined redrafting vs rewriting? I definitely don&#039;t do the &quot;start with a blank page and rewrite from scratch&quot; approach, but my stories do sometimes change significantly in revision.

And true, you can write the life out of a story. A balance is needed, as with all things, I guess. . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could you share any more detail on how they defined redrafting vs rewriting? I definitely don&#8217;t do the &#8220;start with a blank page and rewrite from scratch&#8221; approach, but my stories do sometimes change significantly in revision.</p>
<p>And true, you can write the life out of a story. A balance is needed, as with all things, I guess. . .</p>
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		<title>By: Brad R. Torgersen</title>
		<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad R. Torgersen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-47</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Laurie:&lt;/strong&gt; I try to stick to a 30-minute limit per day, but am seldom successful.  The internet -- especially blogs and message boards -- are like crystal meth for me.  Lately I&#039;ve been pruning all of those links out of my favorites and such, in attempt to make it harder for me to blog surf because I have to go and manually type in the URL, which is &lt;em&gt;such&lt;/em&gt; a pain. (wink)  One thing I have been successful doing is avoiding the political sites.  For awhile, circa 2002-2007, political sites were like extra-potent crystal meth.  I&#039;ve basically banned myself from reading any of the political sites, and am steering clear of most political discussion.  Another thing I always catch myself doing is reading sites and blogs about writing, when I should be &lt;em&gt;writing.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;Tom:&lt;/strong&gt; I suppose this is one of those areas where every writer eventually has to figure out their own process.  I know for me I have rewrititis, in that I can sit and fiddle with a piece a dozen times and STILL not think it&#039;s complete.  Ultimately I have to conclude that I am a poor judge of when a piece is &quot;done&quot;, and get off the rewrite treadmill.  When I was at KKR and DWS two weekends ago, they emphasized &lt;em&gt;redraft&lt;/em&gt; as opposed to &lt;em&gt;rewrite.&lt;/em&gt;  First time I&#039;d heard that from any pros.  They said many pros actually fib quite a bit about how much they actually rewrite.  What I ultimately took away from it was that a) many aspirants are poor judges of their own material, such that b) the rewriting they do tends to erode voice and eliminate whatever unique spark existed in the story prior to the extensive rewrites.  Again, this is mostly for me.  Other writers will figure out a different way, no doubt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Laurie:</strong> I try to stick to a 30-minute limit per day, but am seldom successful.  The internet &#8212; especially blogs and message boards &#8212; are like crystal meth for me.  Lately I&#8217;ve been pruning all of those links out of my favorites and such, in attempt to make it harder for me to blog surf because I have to go and manually type in the URL, which is <em>such</em> a pain. (wink)  One thing I have been successful doing is avoiding the political sites.  For awhile, circa 2002-2007, political sites were like extra-potent crystal meth.  I&#8217;ve basically banned myself from reading any of the political sites, and am steering clear of most political discussion.  Another thing I always catch myself doing is reading sites and blogs about writing, when I should be <em>writing.</em></p>
<p><strong>Tom:</strong> I suppose this is one of those areas where every writer eventually has to figure out their own process.  I know for me I have rewrititis, in that I can sit and fiddle with a piece a dozen times and STILL not think it&#8217;s complete.  Ultimately I have to conclude that I am a poor judge of when a piece is &#8220;done&#8221;, and get off the rewrite treadmill.  When I was at KKR and DWS two weekends ago, they emphasized <em>redraft</em> as opposed to <em>rewrite.</em>  First time I&#8217;d heard that from any pros.  They said many pros actually fib quite a bit about how much they actually rewrite.  What I ultimately took away from it was that a) many aspirants are poor judges of their own material, such that b) the rewriting they do tends to erode voice and eliminate whatever unique spark existed in the story prior to the extensive rewrites.  Again, this is mostly for me.  Other writers will figure out a different way, no doubt.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurie Gailunas</title>
		<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie Gailunas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-46</guid>
		<description>Great rules, Brad.  Your rule #1 is the same as mine, because trolling the web can burn more useless time than anything I know.  My limit is 30 minutes a day.  What&#039;&#039;s yours?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great rules, Brad.  Your rule #1 is the same as mine, because trolling the web can burn more useless time than anything I know.  My limit is 30 minutes a day.  What&#8217;&#8217;s yours?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Crosshill</title>
		<link>http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/following-the-rules/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Crosshill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/?p=73#comment-45</guid>
		<description>&quot;I can’t say I’ve ever met a pro writer who sat down and re-wrote the same book many, many times, until it was just right, then sent it out and made a career from it.&quot;- well, there&#039;s Patrick Rothfuss! His &quot;The Name of the Wind&quot; was written and rewritten for 15 years, to hear him tell it - and it&#039;s one of the best fantasy books I&#039;ve ever read. And Hemingway did plenty of rewriting. :) 

I&#039;m inclined to agree that most of the time excessive rewriting doesn&#039;t teach you as much as writing something new - but at the same time you&#039;ve got to &quot;finish&quot; what you&#039;re working on. As in, get it in a good enough shape to submit before you move on. And I&#039;m often not satisfied on that count until half a dozen drafts in, alas. Embarrassing to send out a weaker story than I&#039;m capable of. 

&quot;Just moving on&quot; to the next story has to date left me with more than a dozen complete-but-not-ready-to-send-out stories in my drawer. Recently I&#039;ve been making an effort to go back and make them submittable. I wonder if I should have done that right away, instead of waiting until now. . .then again, maybe not. I&#039;ve learned a lot since writing those stories. A tough question!

Great rules, though. I wish I was strong enough to abide by them, #1 especially. . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I can’t say I’ve ever met a pro writer who sat down and re-wrote the same book many, many times, until it was just right, then sent it out and made a career from it.&#8221;- well, there&#8217;s Patrick Rothfuss! His &#8220;The Name of the Wind&#8221; was written and rewritten for 15 years, to hear him tell it &#8211; and it&#8217;s one of the best fantasy books I&#8217;ve ever read. And Hemingway did plenty of rewriting. <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m inclined to agree that most of the time excessive rewriting doesn&#8217;t teach you as much as writing something new &#8211; but at the same time you&#8217;ve got to &#8220;finish&#8221; what you&#8217;re working on. As in, get it in a good enough shape to submit before you move on. And I&#8217;m often not satisfied on that count until half a dozen drafts in, alas. Embarrassing to send out a weaker story than I&#8217;m capable of. </p>
<p>&#8220;Just moving on&#8221; to the next story has to date left me with more than a dozen complete-but-not-ready-to-send-out stories in my drawer. Recently I&#8217;ve been making an effort to go back and make them submittable. I wonder if I should have done that right away, instead of waiting until now. . .then again, maybe not. I&#8217;ve learned a lot since writing those stories. A tough question!</p>
<p>Great rules, though. I wish I was strong enough to abide by them, #1 especially. . .</p>
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