Defenders of the nail house

We’re about a week out from the release of the final ballot results, for the 2015 Hugo awards. These results will determine which picks are available for your choosing when it comes time for you to cast your ballot. Best Novel, Best Short Story, etc. Already, the critics of Sad Puppies 3 have been laying the groundwork for de-legitimizing SP3. To include statements which completely misunderstand the point of Sad Puppies. Some of it is innocent. Not everybody’s had time to do a deep-dig on the history of Sad Puppies, nor to be able to discern that each iteration of the project has tended to assume its own personality. What they’re hearing about SP3 is probably hear-say from friends, and much of that is at least one to two years out-of-date. And even then, many of the “facts” put forth, are demonstrably wrong.

But other commentary is not so innocent. There are people who find the very existence of Sad Puppies 3 to be an affront to their personhoods. A sinister outside force come to trouble their precious genre and its establishment. For the people deliberately misconstruing the purpose and thrust of Sad Puppies 3, it’s all about getting out in front and shaping a narrative. They’re smart. They know that truth can be overwhelmed with lies if you just spin your narrative adroitly, and with enough volume.

Thus the charges, in no particular order.

● SP3 is a trojan horse effort conducted by and for the benefit of authors who cannot earn a Hugo award the honest way.

● SP3 is just ballot-stuffing, which ought to be disallowed according to precedent and the rules of ballot-counting established through WSFS.

● SP3 is artificially trying to warp the Hugos out of true; an outside effort conducted by and involving people who are not real fans.

● The SP3 slate works are substandard based on (insert garbledy-garble talk about taste here.)

● The SP3 slate is just a bunch of right-wingers who should go set up their own awards, and leave the Hugos alone.

● SP3 is not legit because its participants were drafted for the effort, and are not willing participants.

● SP3 is not legit because Larry Correia is a terrible human being who is hated by all real fans.

● SP3 is not legit because Vox Day is also running Rabid Puppies and everybody knows Vox Day is also a terrible human being who is hated by all real fans.

● SP3 is a trojan horse for GamerGaters, and all real fans hate and loathe GamerGaters.

● SP3 is just a bunch of straight white guys who are terrified of women, gays, trans, and folks with brown skin.

● SP3 would never happen in the first place if (resurrected conservative editor of the past) could lecture them about their wrongdoing.

● SP3 is a fringe minority faction that does not represent the “main body” of real fans.

● SP3’s slate selections are not the “natural” selections of real fans.

There’s more, but I think you get the gist of it.

Much of this is simply the “in” crowd reacting badly to watching the “out” crowd take a seat at the lunch table. As I’ve mentioned before in this space, according to the dyed-in-the-wool denizens of WSFS and Worldcon, a “real fan” is defined as someone who has been attending Worldcon (and other cons) for a long time, has been properly inculcated into the specific culture of Worldcon and con-going fandom, is someone who volunteers time and effort to cons, generally makes Worldcon (and con-going) a “family” affair, etc. So if you don’t go to Worldcon and you’ve not been part of that culture for a number of years, you don’t qualify as a “real fan” in their definition. And they resent the hell out of anyone who is not a “real fan” showing up to vote on the “real fan” award.

Thing is, the “in” crowd numbers less than ten thousand total, across the entire globe. At any given Worldcon, perhaps half the attendees can actually claim to be regular Worldcon members, and maybe half of those will actually bother to cast a nominating or a final ballot for the Hugos. So, the so-called “most prestigious award” of the entirety of Science Fiction and Fantasy — movies, books, stories, television, music, non-fiction, et al. — is selected according to the tastes and desires of about 2,500 individuals.

Which is roughly equivalent to one quarter of the upper bowl at your typical NCAA Final Four game.

Or about 3.1% of the crowd packed into the stadium at Superbowl XLIX.

Given the fact SF/F can reasonably argue for a consumer base that numbers at least five hundred million people world-wide, it’s a little strange that “real fans” want to keep “the most prestigious award” in the field to themselves.

Or, perhaps it’s not strange at all.

See, Worldcon is like the proverbial nail house. In the 1950s it was nestled in among the fresh post-war suburbs, bright and pretty. The people who lived there were young, or at least younger than they are now, and quite proud of their house and its vibrant, if eccentric, collective personality. For much of the 1960s and into the 1970s, the little house retained most of its original flavor. New folks were brought in, some of the originals left, or died. The culture and basic mindset of the house was kept the same. And everything seemed more or less fine . . . until a guy named George Lucas showed up with his gargantuan set of plans for a huge, gleaming city called Star Wars. Suddenly, skyscrapers and apartment complexes and freeways and all manner of businesses began to shoot up around the house. Until, in the year 2015, the house has become an anachronism. Cheered by a few. Ignored by most. Intensely proud of the fact it defies the world around it. Crumbling at the foundation. And also intensely interested in making sure nobody from the sports bar or the yoga studio or the Gold’s Gym down the street, comes into the little dilapidated house, and puts his or her feet up on the use-worn coffee table.

Because anyone who is not a blooded member of the nail house, doesn’t get to be a “real fan.”

But the award for “real fans” gets to be “the most prestigious award” in SF/F.

See how that works, folks? It’s Taste-Maker 101 strategy. A few, deciding for all.

You’re the outsiders. You are not the real fans. You don’t get to have a say in the Hugos, because you’re not welcome at the table. You haven’t been to two dozen Worldcons and volunteered a thousand hours in various chore-laden positions on the concom or the gofer staff. You didn’t earn your cred, man! Get off their lawn, man! Screw you guys and your video games and your 21st century pop culture sci-fi! So you like The Avengers and the Marvel Cinematic Universe? You’ve got a Storm Trooper costume? Maybe you play Skyrim or Borderlands? Puh-leaze! That doesn’t count. Only real fans get to decide what SF/F is important and worthy of recognition! The other 399,997,500 “fans” out there? You didn’t pay your dues. You don’t belong.

And so the little nail house shutters its windows and boards up its doors. Happily thumbing its nose at the bustling, packed metroplis that has grown up around the eyesore.

Sad Puppies dares to propose that the packed metropolis is every bit as valid as the nail house. That the guy from the sports bar or the Gold’s Gym is every bit as much of a fan, as anyone in the nail house. That the tastes and enthusiasms of the gleaming metropolis count every bit as much as the retiree in the nail house. And while nail houses are fun–yeah, stick it to The Man!–sometimes the nail house attitude of “in” versus “out” is merely a colossal waste of time; if not a complete pain in the ass.

Nobody in the nail house owns fandom. You are a fan if you say you are a fan, and nobody is authorized to take that away from you. Therefore you are also authorized to have your voice heard in the field. You: the guy who maybe never went to a single con, but you’ve got dozens of SF/F novels on your bookshelves, and a DVD or BluRay library filled with spec fic and fantasy movies. You also: the girl who loves paranormal romance, and watches Adventure Time with your kids, and once did cosplay at the regional Comic Con. Or you too: the dude who plays all the latest video games, and can recite line-for-line the script from the latest comic book hero movie.

So really, almost all of the complaints against SP3, can be boiled down to folks in the nail house needing to invent reasons why “invaders” are bad. Morally bad. Ethically bad. Tramplers of propriety. Ruffians without regard for rules. The unwashed. The unclean. Scoundrels.

You, my friends, have been declared unfit company. Do you let the nail house win? Or do you fight to keep your place at the lunch table?

As for the rest of it:

● If it’s a trojan horse for authors, it’s a six-headed horse with three legs, two wheels, a unicorn horn, two cloven hooves, and a whale tail. In other words, a more clumsy trojan horse could not be invented. Sometimes, when we tell you it ‘aint about us, you just have to take our word for it.

● Annie Bellet and Kary English would be shocked to discover they are right-wing. So would Chuck Gannon and Jim Butcher. Rajnar Vajra too.

● We trust Sasquan to run their own con without any “helpful advice” from people who think Sasquan is not grown-up enough to manage its own Hugos. A membership is a membership is a membership, and a vote is a vote is a vote. Inventing technical reasons to toss votes is an admission that the defenders of the nail house aren’t interested in a democratic system as much as they’re interested in a system that protects the status quo as they prefer it.

● It’s true I did forget to obtain explicit permission (for slate inclusion) from three specific authors of which I am aware. Two of them asked to be taken off the list, which was done early and without rancor. One of them happily stayed on, despite the error. It was my mistake, and since this is a completely volunteer effort on the part of everyone doing SP3, I think some honest mistakes can be forgiven. Not that I expect people who literally hate us to ever give us the benefit of the doubt — they won’t. Not now. Not ever.

● Larry and Vox ruffle feathers. I get it. If you simply can’t get over the fact that Larry originated Sad Puppies, or that Vox is running a similar effort called Rabid Puppies, nor can you see that Sad Puppies 3 is its own thing . . . well, like I said, those who’d not be inclined to give us the benefit of the doubt, would probably find some other reason to bitch. Even if Larry and Vox were entirely absent from the equation this year.

● Taste arguments get silly very quickly. There is no objective litmus test in the arts for what is “good” and what is “bad” stuff. Plenty of shit on the usual Hugo ballot these days. But then again, some people simply love that shit. SP3 is here to diversify the total shit from which you get to pick. Because the other guy’s shit stinks, but your shit is awesome. Right?

● GamerGate appears to be the one topic everyone is prepared to spout volumes about, but precious few people understand in detail. Almost everyone who got up on a high horse about it, did so with virtually no understanding of the chain of events. They just wanted an excuse to bash (insert target here.) Suffice to say, video games are a multi-billion-dollar industry, and a large hunk of the games played are explicitly SF/F. I see no reason to divorce this segment of the audience (players) just because of a tabloid gamer news kerfuffle that went viral.

● SP3 isn’t anti-(insert victim group here) it’s pro-(insert audience enjoyment here.) Now, maybe we do look askance at stories which include no real SF/F content and which involve imaginary dinosaur revenge or a gay dude getting soaked, but this is because we remember when SF/F was about swords, dragons, knights, bold princesses, brave heroes, massive starships, interplanetary quests, and the far-flung — and hopeful! — destiny of humankind. We’d like to see more of that, actually. Without having (insert politically progressive cult-of-social-justice finger) waved in our faces.

● If the above statement just mortally offended you . . . oh well.

● We cannot speed dial eternity, to ask Jim Baen what he would have thought of Sad Puppies 3. There is one individual who knew Jim probably better than Jim knew himself, and she’s okay with Sad Puppies 3. All she asked of us is that we try to be on our best behavior. As the guidon-carrier for SP3 I have taken her advice to heart. And I’ve avoided hyperbole as much as I am able, given some of the ignorant and caustic vitriol hurled in my direction.

● Anyone who thinks SP3 is fringe, or that SP3 is a tiny group trying to vainly make a dent in the Hugo selection process against “the will of the people” as it were, hasn’t been paying attention to the will of the people. Again, one third of the upper bowl at a Final Four Game, versus all the crowds at all the Superbowls, ever, combined. Plus tailgaters. SP3 is merely tapping them on the shoulder and saying, “See this thing? You get to have a say too.”

● First they ignore you, then they mock you, then they fight you, then you win. SP1 and SP2 were stage 1 (“ignore”) and now SP3 is on to stage 2 (“mock”) so I imagine SP4 and iterations beyond will reach stages 3 and 4. I won’t be holding the guidon next time, but somebody will. And there ‘aint a damned thing the gaspers and hand-wringers can do about it.

A final thought, as to setting up a whole new award. It might come down to it, if the denizens of the nail house invent ways to keep out people they deem to be not “real” according their definition. But the field already has numerous awards. The Hugo is perhaps the only touchstone which is still more or less recognized to be a “ground floor” accolade, with history that goes back to the post-war period and the Campbell era. The time when Heinlein and Clarke and Asimov bridged the gap between the pre-war pulps, and the Vietnam-era New Wave.

In this sense, the Hugo is like the Stanley Cup. Each final ballot adds a new stack or layer to the bottom of the cup, with names inscribed on it. Not everyone will be a winner. Not everyone takes the cup home. But their names (and the names of their works) will still be inscribed on that cup for all time.

Which is where my personal motivation comes in: there are authors and editors in this field who’ve labored for years, or even decades, without recognition. Some of them are men and women I admire. Some of them are men and women who’ve become my friends. I’ve already had my name on that cup three times. I would like to see their names on that cup too. If for no other reason than I think they deserve to be counted. We were here, and we were part of this field. This includes indie authors and authors going great guns in non-traditional ways. It includes fresh, new authors who’d struggle to get noticed. People with talent and skill. And also publications and editors who aren’t on the “usual suspects” list, therefore the Hugo passes them by.

If there were another touchstone of equal merit, SP3 would be barking up that tree.

But the Hugos are the Hugos are the Hugos. And, love ’em or hate ’em, they belong to all of us.

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194 thoughts on “Defenders of the nail house

  1. Pingback: Brad Torgersen talks back | Neoreactive

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  3. They should call that place Stygian Darkness. Why do you even bother engaging those bullshit artists?

    Intersectional gender feminist Abigail Nussbaum writes about the Hugos “I need a manifesto for it to be clear that I want women, PoCs and progressive themes on the ballot?”

    The same intersectional gender feminist named Farah Mendelsohn who started the witchhunt that drove Jonathan Ross from hosting the Hugos once wrote “Just read Afrofuturism by Ytasha L Womack. Not sure it’s a good book but it is an important one. On my #HugoList it goes.” I for sure jazz hands that for promoting literature.

    How many times do we have to hear these feminist-driven cultists use words like “inclusive,” “underrepresented” and “marginalized” followed by finger-wagging about straight white men to believe social justice warriors mean exactly what they say and act on it and then lie about it? Again and again and again across scores of quotes SJWs recommend books according to nothing more than race and sex, even DE-recommending books by straight white men and asking other SJWs to help them “de-white” their library. That’s lingo straight out of a supremacist group. Then these morons turn around and say we don’t read nominees and want conservative themes. The truth is these idiots define anyone as conservative who push back against their group defamations and innuendoes about racist hateful straight white men and their stupid gender abolition feminism.

    “Only one award went to a white male…” “Stop Reading White, Straight, Cis Male Authors for One Year.” Go claim your racists.

    The very gender feminist Book Smugglers they cite, racially and sexually pie-chart literature like a two-fer KKK and another daffy commenter of Hayden’s – Beth Meacham – personally banned me from Tor for pushing back against racially defamatory comments by Liz Bourke and N. K. Jemisin about dead white fantasy authors, a stubborn habit of Tor that continues to this day. White male racist supremacists across a century tacitly agreed to maintain their own power and centrality. Great. And Jews? What about them? That’s when the bad white menz weren’t erasing multicultural Detroit’s from medieval Bohemia. Meanwhile SJWs routinely erase medieval PoC colonialism from the Balkans and Spain. Let’s stick that in video games for a multiculture and see how SJWs like that diversity. It would be accurate enough. But when Tolkien has “easterlings” it’s racist. What a daffy crew of liars.

    The cult that never shuts up about too-white this and too-male this tries and tell us we are the ones doing that because of the same accidental demographic that might make up something like boxing or basketball, teaching or nursing. SJWs see that accidental demographic as an ideology that hates women, non-whites and homosexuals. Meanwhile SJW have segregated anthologies, rooms and dinners that are by no means accidental.

    They all support Ken Liu who recently wrote “‘authentic’ seems often to mean ‘what white people would approve’.” Try replacing “white people” with “Jews” and see how much it stinks.

    On top of all that this ditzy women has the nerve to attach us all to whatever anonymous dullards that threaten Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian’s rountine of racial and sexual defamation against gamers by writing about a “sociopath contingent.” That’s hilarious coming from a cult of sociopaths who have racist hateful Twitter rants driven by klonopin that last months and are by no means anonymous. One SJW wishes we all die by fire. Meanwhile they’re all out there signal boosting a Kickstarter for the woman who wished that fiery death on us. Go claim your thug. The president of the SFWA has retweeted a viciously psychopathic anti-white woman who has 300,000 Tweets! And yet another with 160,000! The equally psychopathic Requires Hate is out there with long strands of sick mumbling about whites she Tweets to herself. When she’s not lonely SJWs are interacting with her behind a private Twitter feed. Why not give her a Tor column, and David Duke?

    To add even more stupidity T. Hayden writes in typical scare quotes because she has no real ones: “‘My books aren’t bestsellers or award nominees! It must be because I’m conservative!/I’m religious!/I write military SF!’ Otherwise, they’d have to believe that their books aren’t popular or admired purely on their own merits.”

    Anyone paying attention to SJWs knows that is the exact arguments they themselves make. They openly laugh at the word “meritocracy.” And which one of their daffy feminist housewives have 23 million books in print? Yeah, but write about a zombie who can’t see gender and it’s awards-sweep time cuz “smash the patriarchy.”

    I’m trying to imagine minds like the Haydens editing SF and I can’t. “We require good faith.” Pwahahahahaha. “YOU MIGHT BE A STRAIGHT WHITE GUY OF A CERTAIN AGE IF: You look at your unsatisfactory achievements and decide the system must be broken.”

    No, that’s what SJWs assert every single day on Twitter. We’re asserting the exact opposite. Why are people living off their writing losing out to part-time amateur housewives who never shut up about the moral failings of men, ethnic Europeans and heterosexuals, the exact thing our wrong-way KKK shout they are so against?

    What’s it called if I write “You must be a gay black woman…”? Yeah. Go eff off. Try de-voweling the novels you edit; it might improve them.

    Cadigan writes “Here’s a clue about Real Life: you got *nothing* coming.” Unless you’re not a straight white male. Then it’s affirmative action to the fricking gills. “Nobody likes a crybaby” adds Cadigan, who’s self-awareness and sense of irony is as blunted as a cliff face.

    I’m laughing at the idea Nick Mamatas has ever taken anybody apart since nothing he writes makes any sense. Silvia Moreno-Garcia writes about an “Aryan Happiness Defense Front” and makes remarks about “CAN SOMEONE THINK ABOUT THE WHITE PEOPLE?!!” because of a similar lack of awareness. I for sure want her on my side.

    “Didn’t need the user icon to know you’re white and male.” – Teresa Nielsen Hayden. Yeah, by all means tell us about anti-racism and anti-sexism and anti-profiling.

    These are the people who ask us to answer questions while writing off the mountain of racism from their own ideology by merely saying “power-privilege” and “punching up” like 10 Hail Mary’s. In essence, they are never wrong, no matter how much they violate their own so-called “principles,” of which they have not one iota. How can you when there are no rules for everyone, just for the weeping brigades of the “marginalized” and “underrepresented.” Along with “diversity,” those are 3 innocent words SJWs have turned into stinking examples of mindless Newspeak.

    If an SJW isn’t lying then their mouth isn’t open. Never in my life have a seen a bigger crew of bullshitting morons. Remember, these are the idiots who want us to believe that 1/4 of all women who go to college become rape casualties. That surpasses the average casualty rate for historic battles.

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  6. Not one defender of the status quo can explain how so few Hugo winners are genuinely popular books these days. If the books are so great, why aren’t they hitting the bestseller lists left and right.

    The Hugo’s a popularity contest. No matter how much the SMOF want to pretend otherwise, that’s all they are and that’s all they ever will be. Yet somehow, “popular” works just aren’t winning. How is that? Could it be because an insular group of self appointed gatekeepers are bound and determined to keep out anything they don’t like? I think so.

  7. Not one defender of the status quo can explain how so few Hugo winners are genuinely popular books these days. If the books are so great, why aren’t they hitting the bestseller lists left and right.

    Not even best seller lists— lists of actual good sellers in the scifi/fantasy category. Heck, the fiction/novel category of sales over time.
    Best seller lists can be gamed and manipulated– total raw sales, less so.

  8. I’ll cast my one vote. The sad part is you’re right in your assumptions and projections of what will happen. One more time into the breach… sigh

  9. Sure, they can be gamed, which is why being on the bestseller list isn’t a shoe in for any award.

    But the genuinely good sellers tend to show up on them too.

    That said, I agree. So few of them are genuinely good selling books. I remember at one time I was outselling two stories that had JUST won the Hugo, so they had the theoretical bump from that. I think that’s when I became REALLY cynical about the Hugo’s.

  10. “Inventing technical reasons to toss votes is an admission that the defenders of the nail house aren’t interested in a democratic system as much as they’re interested in a system that protects the status quo as they prefer it.”

    So the truefen are hanging with Chad, eh? I never trusted that guy.

  11. So you never did explain who you thought were the “people who have not tended to be invited to the party.” Do you believe that conservative fans, but not liberal fans, were deliberately kept in the dark about how to get a supporting membership and vote on the Hugos?

    Because if you’re going to say, the Hugos just need more publicity, I’m totally with you, but I don’t follow how a slate is part of publicity. A slate is a move by a minority that knows it is a minority to concentrate its power as much as possible, while the majority spreads its votes out thin.

    If you actually believe conservative fans are a majority among fans, you don’t need a slate, you just need publicity.

  12. Nick Mamatas: “‏@NMamatas · 9h9 hours ago
    Military SF I edited: became film, made $400M at box office.
    Military SF Sad Puppies like: earned hair between teeth at eat my balls office.”

    It may come as a shock to Mr. Mamatas, but many Sad Puppies *liked* Edge of Tomorrow. Including me. 🙂

    And it’s telling they can’t counter us without getting nasty and rude.

  13. I have a serious question for the SFF community that either supports gender feminist insanity or looks the other way: what are you going to do when one of these insane women tells the Nebula or Hugo Awards they must stop clapping and use “feminist jazz hands” because PTSD may be triggered or they may feel unsafe? When have you ever had the guts to say no? Don’t laugh – that jazz hands thing just happened at the NUS Women’s Conference in the U.K. which represents hundreds of feminist student unions. They felt someone might start gibbering and foaming at the mouth because of an LSD-like flashback to the time someone disagreed with them. They also passed a motion to ask white gay men in the world to stop appropriating the head-nodding, finger-snapping and slang of black women. You cannot make this insanity up.

    That type of madness and public nervous breakdown is essentially what got U.K. TV host and comedian Jonathan Ross booted from hosting the Hugos in 2014, so you’re practically there already. And Pat Cadigan wants to talk about whining? What Cadigan means is she can’t tell who starts a fight and who reacts and thinks GLAAD, the Jewish Anti-Defamation League and our Constitution equal whining. There are no bigger whiners in the world than gender feminists. Their ideology is based on whining over nothing, on saying mistaking one black person for another is a “micro aggression” and “institutional racism.” And let me remind you there are no scare quotes in this comment. All are sourced.

    Intersectional gender feminists are mad, and they have yet to be denied the least little thing in the SFF community. Comic covers have not gone to press, personal disagreements and feuds have not only been characterized as sexual harassment and misogyny merely by virtue of disagreeing with a woman on the internet, but said to have caused PTSD for which the woman needed treatment. We just had an extended haiku to depression from one of our resident inquisitors who once looked at a photograph of white WorldCon chairs, saw a KKK, blogged about it and later said he wished he “was exaggerating” racism in SFF he admitted he’d never seen, which wins stupid Orwell comment of the year.

    Just a day or so ago one nuthatch called another nuthatch “weak-minded” and was hoisted for using an “ableist slur” against a “disabled woman.” Said disabled woman made her Twitter feed private. The former deleted her entire Twitter feed weeks ago because it is so full of obsessively hateful comments about whites and men. Both publicly admit to mental health issues. Unsurprisingly, both obsessively go after the straight white patriarchy on a near daily basis.

    When L. Correia used the word “pussy,” the latter wrote “Misogyny is so pervasive that it’s embedded in our linguistic system, but such a point would be lost on these morons.” By “morons” I trust she means normal people who aren’t sociopathic, racist, sexist, paranoid, supremacists who need help and medications for their weird compulsions and obsessions about men and whites.

    These are the people SJWs are nominating for Hugo awards for crying about an imaginary fat-shaming by a “white dude parade,” having a fear of getting dragged behind trucks, and punched out in allegorical restaurants by straight white men. Let the Hugos roll. How would one deliver one to the “safer-space” at WisCon, which is essentially a padded cell inside a padded cell – by non-white courier? Save for the woman who used the “ableist slur,” all of those women have been nominated for or won Hugos.

    Exactly how far are you going to let these mentally addled women go? When will you just say no to these extremely curious people who want to smash the cis-hetero patriarchy that haunts their stupid dreams?

    And I’m a “right-wing conservative,” a “racist,” “transphobic,” a “misogynist,” and a “reactionary” “men’s rights activist” if I’m not on board with these mental cases? What the flaming hell’s wrong with you people?

  14. Nick edited the *translation* of “All You Need Is Kill” five years after its publication in Japan. His implied claim that he had anything to do with its success is laughable and is worthy of the same respect shown to inkers shown in Chasing Amy.

  15. Cat, you were perfectly free to put up your own slate. In fact, plenty of people do this around Hugo nomination time. “These are works I thought were worthy. You might find them worthy too.” You act like this “slate” is some monolithic thing that we’re all walking in lockstep voting for without even reading the suggested works.

    Newsflash. It’s not. And this right here is publicity. Might not be publicity you like, because it means the “wrong sorts of fans” are getting actively involved for (perhaps) the first time, but too bad.

    And, honestly, as a conservative woman, I feel not just “uninvited,” but actively, doubly disinvited to the party. After seeing how these people react to Sarah Hoyt, and the vitriol she attracts, I know exactly, to the inch, how they feel about someone like me.

  16. Nick Mamatas taking credit for Edge of Tomorrow is like the water and towel boy taking credit for an NCAA championship title. Again: small potatoes who acts like big potatoes in front of people who don’t know any better. Same shit, new decade.

  17. Let’s face it, it’s all he’s got. He does fit the pattern, though. For the most part, it’s not the big names attacking the Sad Puppies.

  18. But, to those who don’t know any better, he was what made the story good.

    Of course, since it was a popular light novel in Japan, how much content editing did it really need?

  19. I especially like the warning against associating with thugs…from people who think that marching in Stalinist-organized parades is perfectly fine — indeed, a moral imperative.

    The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

  20. Chupik: true dat, and most of the big names get shunned by the Hugos anyway, because being “too successful” is a huge strike against you with the TruFen. You have to ride that sweet spot: selling just enough to be a big fish in a small bowl, but never, ever selling well enough to actually get traction in the mainstream. Beyond Worldcon, beyond academic leftist circles. And Lord help you if you ever write a game or tie-in book. That’s kiss of death right there. The unforgivable sin.

  21. Julie
    What would work to make you feel invited? If the publishers of your favorite books put an ad in the end like the following, would that help?

    “Did you like this book? Would you like to see it win a Hugo for [year of book’s publication]? If so, go to [url for that year’s worldcon’s supporting membership page] to find out out to nominate and vote for the Hugos–Science Fiction and Fantasy’s Fan-Voted Award!”

    I’d like to see more fans vote on the award, because the Hugos obviously suffer from a lack of publicity–I myself, a liberal fan, have been reading SF for nearly 40 years and going to cons for more than 25 and I only recently learned that the Hugos were this accessible, so it’s not the case that conservative fans have been differentially kept in the dark. The lack of publicity is a general problem, and I’d like to solve it in an evenhanded way.

  22. Brad: I read the entire Making Light comment thread. Your misrepresentation of it is near-slanderous.

    First, you were specifically asked repeatedly “why these fans [quoting you] “don’t ordinarily get to have their voices counted”? Do they not have the same ability to nominate and vote as any other fans? Or do you mean something else by that?” Which you have not answered.

    Second, nobody, and I do mean nobody, out of 450+ commentors said anything about “true fans having to go to cons.” In fact, multiple commentors suggested that Worldcon needs to be better at getting the word out to readers who don’t go to cons.

    You’ve got a Storm Trooper costume? At Loncon, I counted half-a-dozen people in full Storm Trooper costume on any given day of the con. There were whole rooms given over to gaming. I’m probably among the minority of voters who didn’t see The Avengers.

    tiny group trying to vainly make a dent in the Hugo selection process against “the will of the people” as it were, hasn’t been paying attention to the will of the people. Then how come not one of last year’s Sad Puppies nominees did better than 4th? At least among the universe of people who vote for Hugos, it is a mathematical fact that Sad Puppies are a small minority.

    In short, Brad, you keep asserting that there’s this great groundswell of popularity for the Sad Puppies slate, and that the people who go to Worldcon are somehow different then other fans. Yet you’ve provided no actual evidence of that.

  23. “First, you were specifically asked repeatedly “why these fans [quoting you] “don’t ordinarily get to have their voices counted”? Do they not have the same ability to nominate and vote as any other fans? Or do you mean something else by that?” Which you have not answered.”

    My take on that was that a more covert slate of nominees was being pushed by a subset of socially conscious fen, which filled the nomination slots and pushed out anything they considered “problematic”. During this time that coincidentally coincided with a complete dominance by TOR for some reason in nominations and wins. It’s the intersection of a slate of “good works” that need to be pushed because they are socially relevant, old fashioned SMOF BS, and a publisher with plenty of friends in the permanent floating worldcon fandom. Sad puppies shows the how the system was being gamed in private by doing it in public. Not only exposing the previous whisper campaigns, but then rubbing their noses in it.

    The big revelation from Sad Puppies is that for 40 bucks you can support Worldcon financially, get to vote for the Hugo, and still attend the vastly superior DragonCon. No downside!

  24. All I can say is if there’s a Happy Kittens Slate it’s so secret that I have no idea where to find it, and believe me, I have been following the Hugos very closely over the past year.

    One of the reasons any accusation of the Sad Puppies being a “Trojan Horse” to get Larry Correia an award would be ridiculous is precisely the fact that a Trojan Horse’s cargo is secret, and the Sad Puppies promotion of Larry Correia is anything but–and *must* be anything but or nobody would know to vote for him.

    So really I don’t see how a “covert liberal slate” would be any less of a contradiction in terms. If people can’t find it, they can’t vote for it.

  25. My take on that was that a more covert slate of nominees was being pushed by a subset of socially conscious fen, – news to me, and I’ve been to several Worldcons and voted at least since 2010.

    Not only exposing the previous whisper campaigns, but then rubbing their noses in it. alleging a whisper campaign exists is not the same as exposing one. To expose, one needs proof – emails, a witness, something. Nor is it suspicious that a publisher which releases twice as many SF titles as the #2 on the list would win a larger number of awards.

    Lastly, if you publicly accuse people of bad faith with no proof, you shouldn’t be surprised if they accuse you of bad faith.

  26. Gerrib,

    Nope, I pretty much nailed it. Making Light (the hosts and the commentators) bashed GamerGaters, Corriea, Vox, made a great noise about who is and is not a “real fan” according to Teresa’s definition, tried to set Jim Baen up as an anti-SP3 sock puppet, said SP3 is stuffing the ballot, said SP3 is a trojan horse for authors who can’t cut it, etc. Teresa specifically said that to be “of the body” of fandom, one must go to cons, volunteer at cons, demonstrate appropriate love and fealty to con culture, etc. It’s all there, in the comments, dude. Everyone can see it — except the blind, and the willfully ignorant.

    Look, you can pretend that the SMOFs aren’t smoke-signalling their distress over the fact that a bunch of dwarves are invading The Shire — you hear that, lads, he’s afraid we’ll blunt the knives! — but you’re swimming up a waterfall. Teresa can’t save Worldcon from the armies of the Iron Hills, much as she’d like to. And neither can you. People are waking up. People are pissed off. People are tired of the SMOFs and the secret campaigns and the polite back-stabbing and the snooty “you’re not really one of us” attitude that permeates so much of Worldcon culture specifically.

    P.S: I’ve been doing this for five years, and I’ve encountered no less than one dozen campaigns of various types. From the “buddy up” campaign surrounding Chicks Dig Time Lords to the campaign to get Red Shirts a best novel win, to the engineering of “socially conscious” voting that depends entirely on the sexuality, gender, and ethnicity of the author or the author’s characters.

  27. Cat, it doesn’t need to be deliberate (indeed, most of it over the preceeding decades most likely wasn’t deliberate) for the more conservative readers to stop bothering.

    There isn’t a single reason for it either. There is almost as many reasons as there are readers.

    Bottom line, the fact that 3k people decided for the whole world kast year aptly demonstrates that _every_ group is underrepresented.

    To put it another way, to say the Republicans are wrong that voter turnout is low in an election because they’re only targeting conservative voters instead of all voters is downright silly.

    Of course they’re targeting their voters soecifically.

    In such a case the Democrates need to get more of _their_ voters, not complain about what the other guys are doing.

  28. There’s a simple answer to that Mr. Gerrib. In the space of only a couple of years blogs that became extremely proactive in terms of gender feminism popped up. That took fans and writers whose main interest was in SFF and not patriarchy and racefails by surprise. When those fans and authors who didn’t have proactive blogs pushed back in comments sections they were banned and deleted. It was a question of who controlled a specific and extremely hostile and defamatory ideological narrative. The same happened in the SFWA and WorldCon, either by tacit consent or being shamed, as in the Ross affair. There was open collusion to discriminate against the oppressive straight white male. People were blind-sided by the sudden organizing. Conventions were extorted by shaming and witchhunts.

    So, those folks went elsewhere and started their own proactive pushback on blogs and Twitter and now you don’t like it. You can’t ban us or delete us any more. And now we’re colluding ourselves, but it is a lie to say we’re colluding to push a political or racial agenda. Morons sitting on Twitter saying we’re anti-diversity are straight up liars. We’re anti-diversity in the sense of SJWs saying the lack of diversity equals the immorality of white men. That is a completely different thing. I enjoy sports of all kinds and the color of who’s playing doesn’t enter into. Saying that’s not true on no evidence and that I’m a racist by default just for being a white man is just more bullshit from the gender feminists you bow to with their daffy white privilege and rape culture idiocy. Gender feminists ignore March Madness because if they don’t it shows them up for the liars they are. There is no reason to suppose Americans in SFF are completely different from basketball fans. Your darlings are selling a con game and it takes a massive amount of plain lying to support it.

    Precisely what agendas particular to conservatism are being pushed by Sad Puppies? None. What is being pushed is a return to at least trying to judge work on its merits in terms of artistry particular to the field. Good editing and weight of prose doesn’t change with skin or sex, no more than playing a guitar or painting does. But ignoring those things in favor of the race and sex of authors and characters does deprecate the art in rather obvious ways. Try throwing white boxers into the middle weight category just because and watch the quality drop. Try throwing black players into hockey just because and watch the quality drop. There is no such thing as Marxist or capitalist guitar-chords or ability to play those chords. Blacks, whites, women and men don’t drive cars, open catsup bottles or use microwaves differently.

    Literature is an art that exists independent of story in the same way music and film does. You can have all the black authors and gay characters you want, but without a good musical arrangement, weight of prose and good film editing, all you’ll get is sludge if you don’t prioritize those things. We are prioritizing those things once again. How hard is that to figure out?

    The idea of pie-charting your reading according to race and sex is not only offensive it will destroy any artform it touches. Try pie-charting the people who fix your car, do your plumbing, paint your house or fly airplanes or a thousand other things and watch failure follow. You’re being pranked, like prank phone calls. Too bad you don’t like it. I for one could care less what a bunch of crass degenerates who never shut up about whites, men and heterosexuals think – no more than I care what neo-Nazis or the KKK think. Let the KKK put an all-white proper team up against the NBA and watch them have their asses handed to them. That’s what you’re doing to SFF by mindlessly pie-charting it. So I’ll tell you what: you do what you do and we’ll do what we do and let the devil take the hindmost. We’re not asking permission or sitting around waiting for retards to get huffy and threaten us with banhammers and disemvoweling. Don’t forget to jazz hands at the Hugos so your precious darling don’t have a psychotic break with reality on top of the PTSD they already have from being marginalized in a white supremacist patriarchy.

  29. No, Brad. Yes, some of the things you list show up here and there, in a much wider sea of people asking you what you meant by “people who haven’t been invited up till now” (which you never answered, and still haven’t) and a subsequent conversation about how to increase publicity and Hugo voting to get more of the avid-SFF-readers-who-don’t-go-to-cons demographic. Sprinkled in among “how tastes have changed” and “what I started out reading” and “what Heinlein would be writing now” and so on.

    And me, mentioning that Charles Gannon told me on Facebook that he first found out about the Sad Puppy Slate three days after it came out. Which means there were, not two, but at least *three* people you didn’t check with in advance, and while I understand that mistakes happen when you’re trying to put together a 60-some-odd member slate, “I wonder if there was anyone else I missed” and “let me think if there’s some way I can keep better track of it if I ever do this again” might be reasonable ways to react to that.

    And if the armies of the Iron Hills want to go to Worldcon, more power to them. Worldcon doesn’t mind a bit having more bodies; the hotels can probably use the business, and as actual attendees, they could go to the business meeting and propose a Hugo for videogames.

    Jared, if you feel like conservatives are underrepresented in Hugo voting because, for one reason or another, conservatives dropped out over the years without anyone being unfair to them, then I grant you you need to get the word out to conservatives who are also avid readers of SFF. But in that case I don’t understand the resentment behind the campaign.

  30. Teresa specifically said that to be “of the body” of fandom, one must go to cons Would you care to cite a comment number? Because I read all of her comments (one can click “view all by” to see them) and that is not there.

    tried to set Jim Baen up as an anti-SP3 sock puppet No, she expressed her opinion of what he’d do, which is every bit as valid as yours or Toni W.’s.

    Again, you allege campaigns to get somebody a win without evidence. Doctor Who is the best-selling and longest-running SF series in history. One would think that a book about it with 29 essays by all the hottest names in SF would have a hard time not winning the award. In any event, “mommy, he did it too!” stopped working for me in kindergarten. Your mileage apparently varies.

  31. What would make me feel “invited” would be not being automatically assumed to be stupid, misinformed, or downright evil just because I’m a conservative Christian who’s friends with Larry and Brad. What would make me feel “invited” would be people actually reading the books and stories in question rather than automatically dismissing them because of who wrote or nominated them. What would make me feel “invited” would be people not saying “Well, time to break out No Award again” when the Sad Puppies slate is mentioned.

    What would make me feel “invited” would be people not painting the entire slate as being filled with racist sexist homophobes just because Larry and Brad happen to like their work.

    But like hell is that going to happen, and so I’m just going to crash the damn party, invited or not, “real fan” or not, and gleefully drink the tears of the SMOF. Because they’re not the boss of me.

  32. The resentment comes from those who *do* feel they were driven away.

    It comes from people saying authors we respect are racist and sexist only because they are conservative.

    It comes from complaints about Larry’s book being nothing but big white manly men doing manly things, with big busty blonds who exist only as an ‘award’, despite the inconvenient fact that such a statement makes it blatantly clear that they didn’t read the book, as none of that is in the books.

    By all means, read and vote for whatever you want. Leave us to do the same, and if you aren’t one who says we’re wrong or transgressive or evil, understand that there are those who say they are on your side that do.

  33. I have only one wish: ending hate speech in the SFF community. There is no place for it. And my definition is very strict – it can refer only to race and sex and in their millions. Even stricter, it must be obsessive; at least once a week. Even stricter, it must be virtually 100% negative profilings of an ethnic or sexual group. Unfortunately that includes about 100 people in the core SFF community who are virtually all marginal figures as artists but well-placed institutionally. They are well-placed because KKK can smell out KKK like dogs in heat. When a guy who’s not even a member of the SFWA, has published a single story, or a blogger is on a Nebula Awards Weekend panel spouting bullshit about whites, you know literature is sitting in a garbage can somewhere right next to neutron stars and planetary ballistics. Having an anti-white anti-male Twitter feed is all you need these days. It’s the path to success in this gentrified KKK.

    I don’t care about politics. I don’t care how you feel about abortion, commies or Iraq. I’ll read you, enjoy it or not, and leave you alone. I will not put up with being defamed because of my race and sex.

    What’s really funny is the same morons calling us thugs are backing the Kickstarter of a woman who wished we should all die in a fire. Our crime? Disagreeing with psychotic gender feminist theory that the word “pussy” equals advocating rape and hating all women on Earth. She has never apologized for that nor has any SJW called her out for it save one I know of.

  34. What would make me feel “invited” would be people not painting the entire slate as being filled with racist sexist homophobes just because Larry and Brad happen to like their work.

    When folks throw a fit because a group of people used exactly the same process to participate that folks have been using for ages, then it’s fair– rather polite, actually– to describe it as “not invited,” especially when there’s open attempts to remove their participation and/or invalidate anything they do, plus vicious personal attacks, false accusations, rejection of statements without evidence….

    Perhaps the problem is that the loud folks objecting aren’t familiar with the concept of being polite outside of the context where it’s a club to make those who don’t agree with one be silent.

  35. “It comes from people saying authors we respect are racist and sexist only because they are conservative not robotically lock-step far left.”

    .There, Jared, fixed that for you.

  36. Good fix. ‘Cause we aren’t all conservative anyway.

    Did anyone see the clip making the rounds this week of Bill Maher just ripping into the people on the far left that attack others (that they agree with 95% of the time) for stepping out of line even a little bit?

    Maher is no saint himself, but it was funny to watch, because not only is he right, he didn’t take it far enough.

    You’d think the fact that we all like SFF is enough to at least get civility, but nope.

  37. Oh, just noticed that Brad is now acknowledging that he forgot to ask at least three people rather than two. Thanks for fixing that; if I overlooked it before, I am sorry.

    Julie, if what will make you feel invited is everyone ignoring the past behavior of the Sad Puppies (nominating a work that wasn’t worthy of an award) I’m afraid that’s not going to happen. I’m sorry you think it’s unfair for people to remember what Sad Puppies did last year, but I would point out that many Sad Puppies are still carrying a grudge over Vox Day being turfed from SFWA for misusing SFWA’s twitter feed, which happened rather longer ago. So remembering past behavior is human nature.

    If it helps any, I have been passing on the pleasant conversation I had with Charles Gannon (also in that Making Light thread that upset Brad so much, but perhaps he overlooked it) and pointing out that he got a Nebula nomination, which the Sad Puppies have no way to arrange, and is probably worth checking out. Since talking to Charles, I have not been assuming that a Sad Puppy nominated author is necessarily a Sad Puppy himself (or, on rare occasion, herself.)

  38. The only problem there is that you have no basis to say the story was unworthy of nomination, unless it was you yourself that nominated it thinking it unworthy.

    You can absolutely say _you_ didn’t like it, but you have no right to say someone else didn’t.

    My personal feelings for any author are irrelevent when talking about the story being good or not. Speaking for myself I thought the story intriguing, and better deserving of a SFF award than some of the nominees, a few of which I would not classify as SFF.

    That a lot of the voters last year disagreed with me doesn’t change my opinion any more than mine changes theirs. That’s why it is a vote in the first place.

  39. The only story that I’d say didn’t deserve a nomination was the dinosaur revenge porn…and the only reason I say definitively it didn’t deserve a nom was because there was nothing in that blasted story that even LOOKED like SF.

    Vox’s story may not have been your cup of tea. It may not be my cup of tea. But to say it didn’t deserve a nomination? Who granted YOU that authority?

  40. “shaunduke retweeted Alexis Goldstein @alexisgoldstein · Mar 28 ICYMI the 1st time around. Dear white people: read this paper ‘white fragility’ http://libjournal.uncg.edu/index.php/ijcp/article/view/249 …”

    “White Fragility
    Robin DiAngelo

    Abstract

    White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium. This paper explicates the dynamics of White Fragility.”

    Thanks for the retweet Skiffy and Fanty. You’ll probably get another Hugo nomination. It’s all about the science fiction, isn’t it? Let me know when in a thousand years one of you morons would ever dare start out something “Dear black people…”

    “shaunduke @shaunduke · Mar 28 @tadethompson next week, @SkiffyandFanty will have a ‘writing the other / writing the self’ panel w/ Nalo Hopkinson, Kate Elliott + more.”

    Really? What a shocking surprise from an SJW. It’s all about the SF isn’t it? Are you Skiffy or Fanty? Let me know when you morons would ever dare hold a workshop on how PoC can write whites.

    “shaunduke @shaunduke · Mar 28 @tadethompson and there is one from at PoC perspective called Magical Negro and the Yellow Peril. On http://soundclick.com

    Thank you Mr. Freedom Rider. May I have another? Why not change the name of your podcast to the Amos ‘n’ Andy Show? That had about as much SF as SJW moaning does. Say hi to Tade Thompson and his “Safe” safe-space website for PoC from the mean whites in SFF.

    END JIM CROW IN SFF. IT IS A TERRIBLE PERIL!!!! SO MANY TRAGIC UNDERREPRESENTED!!! AND DON’T FORGET HOCKEY!!! WHITES SUCK AT BEING HUMANS.

  41. You misapprehend me, Cat. I don’t have a problem with people having a problem with a particular story on the slate. Or a particular author.

    What I have a problem with is people deciding that the entire slate, en masse, deserves to be denigrated because of a single work on it. Dan Wells, in particular, was very surprised at the wholly undeserved personal vitriol aimed his way last year. It’s identity politics at its very worst (not that identity politics necessarily has a “best,” but I digress), and I thought it was wholly beneath us.

    It breaks my heart that I seem to have been wrong about that.

    Also, it’s telling that you say “since talking to Charles,” you’ve stopped making assumptions. I’m glad you might have finally (somewhat) opened your mind, but it’s a bit late, especially since Brad made it plain from the get-go that SP3 was a different critter than 1&2.

  42. Gotta love this one:

    #499 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: March 29, 2015, 03:43 PM:
    Why are people talking about what would happen if everyone who reads SF voted in the Hugos? IMO, it’s not a relevant question. The Hugos don’t belong to the set of all people who read the genre; they belong to the worldcon, and the people who attend and/or support it. The set of all people who read SF can start their own award.

    Yup. All you un-fans can go start an un-fan award for yourselves. Us TruFen will keep our precious award, thank you very much, and you can all go fuck off and die.

  43. I would point out that many Sad Puppies are still carrying a grudge over Vox Day being turfed from SFWA for misusing SFWA’s twitter feed

    Since you’ve been eager to correct Brad about not asking three authors versus two, I should point out that this is incorrect on two counts. First, I was not turfed from SFWA. The SFWA Board voted unanimously to expel me, but the membership never subsequently voted on it as required by the controlling bylaws. I am still a Life Member, although I have respected the Board’s apparent desire that I not further involve myself with the organization. You will note that SFWA has never announced my expulsion, for the obvious reason that I was never expelled.

    Second, I did not misuse SFWA’s Twitter feed. I broke a minor rule about the sort of links that were permitted on the @sfwaauthors Twitter feed, which is NOT the official SFWA Twitter feed.

    The real reason for the charade was that both John Scalzi and Patrick Nielsen Hayden refused to renew their memberships if the Board did not vote to expel me.

  44. T.L. Knighton. I read “If you were a dinosaur my love” and the closest it comes to being porn is that the point of view character is the other main character’s fiancee. Seriously, when someone describes it as “porn” my first thought is they have so little reading comprehension I can’t trust them to be able to tell me what a story is *about,* which means certainly they’re not going to be a good guide to whether I will like it or not. If you want to persuade people to read stories you like, you need to be careful about stuff like that.

    Julie, when people say they’re nominating quality works, and then one of the works is not only not good, but so far outside their stated preferences for action, adventure, excitement, and explosions that it’s obvious they nominated it purely for political reasons, of course people get the idea that quality works weren’t the point. And of course that idea holds even if one or two of the other works *are* of reasonable quality, because it’s obvious there was more to how they chose than that.

    I may also have given you the wrong impression: I don’t think *Charles Gannon* is a member of the Sad Puppies, and after talking to him, I realize that may be true of other Sad Puppy choices. However I don’t think SP3 is a different creature from SP1 and 2–when the SP nominees turn up in the Hugo Nominations, I’ll read them, and that’s when I’ll find out for sure how true the prediction from past behavior was in this case. It may be wrong, we’ll see, but whether or not it was wrong, it was a reasonable thing to do. And frankly, “Wisdom From My Internet,” for one, gives every sign, so far, of having been chosen, again, for reasons of politics rather than quality.

    And Brad, you are not the only one to notice how that sounded; I have asked Teresa to clarify that, and so has another commenter. If she did want to keep new people out of WorldCon, I would still want to increase them, but we will see what she says.

  45. Clearly, someone needs to get out more. Especially since the term “porn” is routinely used to describe things that do not include gratuitous sex. “Gun porn” is common in some circles, but I’ve also seen “car porn”, “motorcycle porn”, “tool porn” (meaning tools used to perform certain forms of work, not a euphemism for genitalia), etc. In fact, when someone can’t discern the meaning of the term, I can’t trust them to understand people and common usage of language to be a good guide on much of anything. If you want to persuade people to give a flying flip about your opinion, you need to be careful about stuff like that.

  46. @Cat: Knighton was using the term “porn” in the same sense that one refers to “gun porn”–i.e., throwing plot and characterization away in the service of focusing on something else.

  47. 60guilders: Thanks. I was composing my own reply with far more snark along similar lines. I will also note that the term “porn” is also used with photographs of items that aren’t sexual in nature, but which an individual finds desirable. Basically, “porn” used in this manner means anything that serves to fuel the desire but little else.

  48. You’re welcome.
    Also, in regards to the fellow saying that the revenge fic was superior to Vox’s story: having read neither, I cannot say if Ms. Swirsky’s story is better. However, based on the summary, it is most certainly not speculative fiction, except in the most meta of senses.

  49. Oh, how good I forget food porn?

    I shall flog myself over my oversight…especially since food porn is so awesome!

    60guilders: Agreed. I make no pronouncement over which is better. I haven’t read Vox’s story, so I can’t. But someone fantasizing about another person turning into a dinosaur and kicking ass isn’t SFF. Sorry, but it’s not. Not by any definition in common use that I’m aware of.

    It might be the best piece of fiction ever written. Doesn’t matter. It’s not science fiction/fantasy. That’s the whole point.

  50. Cat, to be kind, I tend to ignore people who rant about reading comprehension that try to correct Brad about not contacting two, but three authors prior to announcing the slate after he admitted to the same in the original unedited article.

  51. I’ve found that there are a number of people who hold others to standards that they’re unable to attain.

    For example, not being able to tell the difference between “two” and “three” is acceptable.

    Using the term “porn” for something other than sexually explicit material? HOW DARE YOU! BURN THE WITCH!

  52. Cat said: Julie, when people say they’re nominating quality works, and then one of the works is not only not good, but so far outside their stated preferences for action, adventure, excitement, and explosions…

    Oh, right. Because when a person says they love action, adventure, excitement, and explosions, that’s all they are permitted to like at all, and a quiet, thoughtful story about faith and relationships is always and forever completely out of their wheelhouse and cannot touch them in any way possible! Clearly, they’re lying about liking the story solely in order to bop the noses of the SMOF!

    …you realize how shallow this is making you sound, right? I mean, FFS, have you read Brad’s Chaplain stories? Larry Correia’s “Father’s Day” (in the “Shared Nightmares” antho) grabs you right by the Parent Feels and doesn’t let go. And I like blood, guts, and explosions as much as the next girl, but even I have written a few stories wherein nothing and nobody actually dies.

  53. Well, I suppose you could call it a fantasy, but under that expanded definition of ‘fantasy’ all actual “bow-chicka-bow-bow” type porn would have to be allowed in, and West Wing, Michael Moore movies, a ton of scientist-ick studies that just happen to confirm folks’ biases (tastes great, less science!), etc.

  54. Gerrib demands a post # from the Making Light thread, Brad delivers and adds the quote. And the response from Gerrib is due.

  55. Well, I was going to coment the recent exchanges, but Julie summs up my sentiments well enough in adition to her own.

    It does remind me though that I need to move her higher up my reading list.

  56. @Julie. I was interested in pointing out counter examples to Cat. Eventually Cat stated that the different SPs are all the same – and is unpersuable to the contrary. (Because you must hold your outrage close, and never allow Precious from your sight?). Shrug. I am looking forward to the announcement on the 4th.

  57. The dinosaur story is about someone fantasizing. This does not make it genre fantasy, however. It would have to be about someone turning into a dinosaur for it to qualify.

  58. Julie, I REALLY need a like button for your comment.

    As an unapologetic action-adventure fan, I can still appreciate well written stories that aren’t about action and/or adventure. I have my preferences, but that’s not ALL I like.

  59. “If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love” is definitely genre because the SJW definition of science fiction is what jerks white straight men are yesterday, today and tomorrow.

    On the other hand Edgar Rice Burroughs and Robert Heinlein are from the goombah racist sex revenge fiction genre full of irrelevance like Mars and space stations.

  60. “that the people who go to Worldcon are somehow different then other fans. Yet you’ve provided no actual evidence of that.”

    Except, you know, actual sales numbers. Which has been pointed out to you on numerous previous occasions.

    Amazon Kindle sales rank for 2014 Hugo Nominee Parasite, by Mira Grant: #73,984
    Amazon Kindle sales rank for 2014 Hugo Nominee Warbound, by Larry Correia: #37,860

    Since Kindle sales rank is not linear, that means that Correia is selling a lot more books than Grant. Yet Correia would likely not have been nominated had it not been for the previous SP attempt.

    Time to switch to the next entry on your list of disingenuous spin attempts (which, if I haven’t lost track, is to argue that the dino non-SF non-story and/or Scalzi’s Redshirts are somehow literary masterpieces.

  61. Listen to the voices that are bringing down SFF to the level of a filthy alley. They routinely make anti-white, anti-male and anti-heterosexual comments and find and support every last nugget of anyone else who does as well. These are the voices of ignorance and arrogance.

    “1. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 3h3 hours ago Someone needs to send a DNE notice to @PrinceJvstin & @SFReviewsnet. DNE VD. Fool be crazy.

    2. Paul Weimer ‏@PrinceJvstin 3h3 hours ago @shaunduke @SFReviewsnet ah, you saw that, did you?

    3. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 3h3 hours ago @PrinceJvstin @SFReviewsnet Yup. Recently subbed to Glyer’s blog. I don’t find VD has much of a leg to stand on, so I don’t engage.

    4. Paul Weimer ‏@PrinceJvstin 3h3 hours ago @shaunduke @SFReviewsnet I really should know better, but we established I’m the Diplomatic Eclipse in the Solar Circle of our podcast

    5. Cora Buhlert ‏@CoraBuhlert 3h3 hours ago @PrinceJvstin @shaunduke @SFReviewsnet Are we talking about VD vomitting all over File770?

    6. Paul Weimer ‏@PrinceJvstin 3h3 hours ago @CoraBuhlert @shaunduke @SFReviewsnet yes, and how I’m crazy for trying to engage with him.

    7. Cora Buhlert ‏@CoraBuhlert 3h3 hours ago @PrinceJvstin @shaunduke @SFReviewsnet I tried to engage with these people, too, at first, but I really think they’re beyond engaging.

    8. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 2h2 hours ago @CoraBuhlert @PrinceJvstin @SFReviewsnet It would be nice if one could reasonably expect an actual engagement, but you can’t, really.

    9. Paul Weimer ‏@PrinceJvstin 2h2 hours ago @shaunduke @CoraBuhlert @SFReviewsnet I’ve tried. Lord knows I have tried

    10. shaunduke ‏@shaunduke 3h3 hours ago @PrinceJvstin @SFReviewsnet After all, calling him out for being racist and sexist is just fact. He is both of those things.”

    I am not beyond engaging. I am easy to talk to. We just have to agree on one dictionary. I don’t even care what it is as long as it’s just one. The real reason SJWs won’t engage is because you change rules so whatever you say unerringly points to the defamation of straight white men as an entire group as surely as it points away from any groups of women, PoC or gay people. The truth is you have no neutral definition of “racist” and “sexist,” though those words are as neutral as is the word “hate,” which you also strictly reserve for straight white men. Only by using a dictionary that is as faithless as a weather vane can you excuse the racist, sexist, supremacist cult you worship like fawning children. That’s aside from the fact that centering this bigoted bullshit in a genre like SFF is weird, obsessive and creepy. It couldn’t be weirder than if I had to listen to it every time I went to Jiffy Lube or the plumber came over. The idea a guy who calls himself a “hetero white male” as if he’s a kapo in a concentration camp and who “wants the patriarchy to burn” is reasonable is plain nutty.

    I have an idea for taking a break for a year. It should be easy in a genre like science fiction and fantasy since it previously went decades with no problem. Shut the fuck up about men, whites and heterosexuals for a year. You’ll find racism and sexism in SFF would suddenly and by an amazing coincidence go down by about 100%.

  62. “I myself, a liberal fan, have been reading SF for nearly 40 years and going to cons for more than 25 and I only recently learned that the Hugos were this accessible, so it’s not the case that conservative fans have been differentially kept in the dark.”

    Cat, I think this is true. I was just mentioning elsewhere that when I was hoping to go to a WorldCon years ago because it was going to be right next door (life happened so I didn’t go) I’d heard of the Hugos but I had no idea that I’d be able to vote for them. I wouldn’t have known who was in the running. I wouldn’t have read the books. I don’t think that *conservative* fans have been kept in the dark. I don’t even think that fans in general have been deliberately kept in the dark. But I do think that it’s been something of an In-Group thing. It’s not, as someone famous has recently put it, an award that belongs to WorldCon. It’s been an award that belonged to People In The Know.

    That the In Group seems to have developed a notable general character is simply the nature of In Groups. Those who feel unwelcome are met with… of course we’d welcome them with open arms if only they actually wanted to be Part of Our Group. That’s not a plot. It’s just the nature of In Groups.

    You say you’d be all for publicity. This is great publicity. The answer to any perceived “taking over” by a barbarian horde is to invite even more people to participate. Invite in the “liberal” hoi polloi to vote for their favorite novels and stories. But I do sort of wonder if it’s not the “conservative” or “liberal” part that’s the problem, but the “hoi polloi” part that has people’s panties in a twist. It would explain why someone can go to cons for more than 25 years and not realize that they can vote for the Hugos.

  63. Cat Faber, why do you consistently present yourself as high-status and someone who is BFFs with people in major institutions of SFF? I like SFF, I follow some of the inside baseball (which this quite gloriously is) and you’ve been all over pro-SP3 blogs fronting like you’re some kind of big mucky-muck who Knows Important People and has her finger on the pulse of Real SFF.

    As far as I can tell from the link in your comments, you’re just an average schmoe like most of the rest of us commenters and your opinions are not those of someone affiliated with Worldcon, the Hugos, the Nebulas, SFWA, or any other major SFF institutions and awards. You simply show up on blogs and try to make it look like you’re some kind of reasonable authority figure commenting on the events.

    It’s very curious, because someone just wandering by could get to thinking your commentary is that of someone well-connected within SFF circles, when that may well not be the case based on your publicly available persona. I certainly was confused about why you were commenting so vociferously about how naughty and mean those Sad Puppies folken were until I decided to click the link in one of your comments and discovered you’re just J. Random Fangirl like me, a conservative Christian housewife who likes SFF and thinks the Sad Puppies initiative is a great way to get more people putting up more slates because diversity is core to America and SFF. It’s practically traditional in this fine country.

  64. Why the resentment? Because SP1 & 2 created the noise that led to some of us old school “nail house” fen to take a hard look at the Hugos. Fen who may’ve GAFIATed a bit for family & community reasons, but who put on cons, mentor young fan girls, and have been involved in on-dead-tree SF&F continuously. Working (just for an example) to get their state’s young readers choice award to include SF & comic books.

    And we’d wondered: why is the range of SF that’s not preachy and boring so small these days? Unless it’s YA or from Austalia. Those last few books that got pushed and praised that turned out to be a hot mess and tedious withall–the author was some special snowflake SJW–? And the truly innovative feminist fiction you found and loved is getting ignored or dismissed because it’s not part of that same incestuous clique–?

    Flaming fish zombies, Dub-Dub! Of course we’re ticked. And energized. And determined to plunk down our cashy-money to get a chance to see the good stuff get recognized for a change. I think that SP3 could have used some more input into the graphic works category, but that’s a project for another day.

    As to getting permission from the writers before putting them on a suggested-nominees slate, the only reason that’s a required courtesy is because those on the slate can expect to get teased, taunted, and bullied by the Cat Fabers, John Scalzis, and TNHs. If only we could count on those folks and those they egg on to behave like reasonable adults and not blame and berate authors for any readership that likes their stuff and hopes to see it rewarded, right?

    But then, there’d be little need for Sad Puppies, would there?

  65. Yeah… needing to get “permission” to recommend someone for a Hugo because they might get mercilessly attacked or even have their careers torpedoed… says a whole lot about the NON Sad Puppy side of this. All by itself that practically proves who the bad guys are.

  66. Julie,

    That’s a great point, frankly. I am not sure people not in the field understand how much fear is injected into the equation; from the so-called “inclusive” side of this. Especially when you’re an aspiring writer. It becomes pretty obvious that unless you’re a thorough-going progressive and know how to work all the conduits with the usual suspects at places like Worldcon, you’re going to have a rough time. Being “out of the closet” as a political conservative means all kinds of people will rush to make character judgments about you, editors will quietly look askance at your manuscripts, etc. And this is not a secret, really. It’s just that, until now anyway, not very many people stood up. To call out the bullshit. Well, maybe the tipping point has finally been reached? Maybe Sad Puppies is ripping the tinfoil cover off the whole rotten TV dinner?

    Again, if fear is your ally — don’t cross us or we will shun you, punish you, threaten your career — that’s an immediate sign that you’re operating from a pretty bad place. I keep seeing comments from the opponents of Sad Puppies saying, “Puppies are filled with hate, this genre runs on love,” but the number of people who’ve been hated on by the SMOFs and the snobs and the SJWs is legion. Sooner or later, those fairy tales about love and acceptance and inclusivity, don’t fly anymore. It’s a pose. Nothing more.

  67. It’s true – if you have to get permission for Sad Puppies first, why is that? It’s because the side that claims to be for social justice will hand them their heads in an inquisition if they can. The whole thing is a hot mess. SJWs seem to have no standards I can detect at all. The Skiffy and Fanty retards cringing before the racism and sexism of VD have no problem exchanging supportive Tweets with Requires Hate, one of the feminist psychotics who genuinely makes intersectionalism rise to the level of a cult of female and race worship that hates whites and men.

    Requires Hate once wrote “… we consider buffaloes especially stupid as animals go. The perfect analogy for white men.” But don’t call anyone a “half-savage” cuz Skiffy and Fanty don’t like that – it’s wrong and racist. Why? Who the hell knows?

    SJW so called “anti-racist”s use the most vile defamatory racial and sexual slurs and dehumanization theories in the history of SFF.

    You can have too many blacks or woman in any cultural expression in America without a word from these feminist nitwits, but if there’s a demographic spike of men or whites anywhere at all they start throwing around bullshit about a patriarchy and white supremacy.

    Some white guy can get murdered by a black guy just for walking his dog and you hear crickets. But if a black guy gets murdered by a white a whole range of SFF Twitter feeds will make sure you know all about it. In a healthy system that cares about law, both get equal attention. But SJWs and their stupid intersectional twaddle don’t care about law.

    They all say Ellen Pao won even though she lost her lawsuit for gender discrimination. SJWs backed a Kickstarter for two harridan feminists who defamed librarian Joe Murphy because he sued them (and subsequently won). Even though they simply made up stories Murphy harassed women, they still are insulting people at the same time they had to issue a public apology.

    The Dept. of Justice has thrown feminist fake rape statistics and the Ferguson shooting into the garbage and SJWs are still going on about each being an epidemic of male and white lawlessness. You think Jim Hines is going to apologize for rabble-rousing with his bullshit #JustListen using those fake 1 in 4 statistics? #JustListen to who? The U of Virgina rape-hoax? SJWs did the same thing for the Trayvon Martin verdict. SJWs are always right because they have nothing like fair play.

    Don’t ever mention “murdering kin” about blacks – it’s racist and I agree. but if Mikki Kendall does that – and she did about whites at Ferguson – that’s just fine. I am the “murdering kin” of Officer Darren Wilson according to the “anti-racism” standards of the SJW SFF community. The thing is, if you’re white and say that you get ostracized. If your’re black you get retweeted and put on SFF convention panels as a wise Solomon.

    Now SJWs are all busted up about the Indiana law that maintains one can refuse to do business with anyone you want even while SJWs continually refuse free trade because of a person’s sex or race, actually admitting they only review non-whites and women and proudly pointing out they only read women or non-whites for a year. The same cult that pumps their fists when no white men won an award will boycott all-male or all-white convention panels. SJWs won’t do business with conventions that don’t have a strict feminist harassment rule in place, even while SJWs harass straight white men on Twitter morning, noon and night.

    SJWs are unprincipled liars. They have only one rule to determine right from wrong and that is race and sex. On the Stephen Colbert Show Anita Sarkeesian says “Do you believe that women should have equal rights to men? Great! Then you are a feminist.” But at a feminist conference she says right out “we don’t want equality within these oppressive systems.” That’s because these feminists talk to each other differently than they do to us. That’s why they don’t like being quoted – because we catch them out in their bullshit about “diversity” and “equality.”

    John Scalzi writes “Face it, dudes: ‘GamerGate’ is a toxic thing. You can’t say you support WITHOUT explicitly standing with those who hate and harass women.” Apparently that doesn’t go for broads since he has yet to call out the woman who wished we should all die by fire in a Twitter conversation he started by harassing Larry Correia. If SJWs didn’t have double standards they wouldn’t have any. There is no “Face it, broads” in SJW-land. Why would there be within an ideology of lady-worship?

    Neil Gaiman publicly whines about a segregated high school prom but then publicly supports a woman who co-created a segregated room. What principle is in play there? I can’t detect what it is. What moral lesson will be at the end of a story by that author?

    SJWs lie every time they use the word “politics.” They support an ideology that has a biological hatred of men, whites and heterosexuals. There is nothing political about that. If there were, SJWs wouldn’t contradict themselves every time they open their mouths.

  68. It’s important to remember, as I mentioned earlier, that folks like Cat and her ilk believe in two sets of rules. One for us and one for them.

    For example, it’s perfectly acceptable for them to lash out a people who are included in a slate of potential nominees through no real action of their own. Meanwhile, we’re supposed to play nice, be polite, and pretend that the whole world is puppies and daisies.

    Screw that.

    Up thread, James May quotes someone who said publicly that they were going to nominate a book because it was “important” despite the fact that they weren’t sure it was actually good. Nothing but crickets on that one, because “important” is just fine to set as criteria. But if the wrong people think a book is actually good? Well…we can’t have that.

    And heaven forbid that someone not get permission to nominate them for the same award that once nominated a soft core porn for a Hugo. That might lead to a freaking cataclysm or something.

  69. Ah, I was wondering if that was you, Clamps.

    I’ve told you before that I’m not going to explain what’s going on in someone else’s head, but nice try.

  70. “I am not beyond engaging. I am easy to talk to.” – James May.

    James, I respectfully disagree, when every time you do talk at me, its to slam me and mine as SJWs, with nothing else about pissing about how we’re destroying the genre and everything else.

    Do people on the opposite side of the political spectrum from you show intolerance? Yes. Your point, as far as I can see, seems to consist of only harping on this point, over and over again. “The SJWS are evil, they are destroying SF and society besides.”.

    If you think all the Sad Puppies are on the side of the Angels, though…you are sorely and sadly mistaken.

    I’m on the record as supporting more than a few of the things that Larry and Brad said on the AISFP podcast as their stated hopes for their campaign and for fandom. I am against, however, the sowing of chaos for the sake of sowing chaos, and making nominations primarily for the purpose of promoting a political agenda or to score points.

    The conservatism of the Hugos and the structure have made it possible for an organized subgroup of fandom to put their candidates forward in an organized campaign. The Scientologists did it before, and now the Sad Puppies are perfecting the process.

  71. Mr. Torgersen, this kerfuffle had the happy chance of reminding me I needed to buy and read your book so I spent the evening yesterday enjoying the best book I’ve read so far this year.

    Last year when Baen announced their Fantasy Award Contest I ran across a whole bunch of vileness on Twitter about what a “Baen award winning story” would be. The usual, Conan-the-republican and swooning blondes garbage. It actually made me hesitate to enter, worrying that in the remote chance I won that it would start my career with a cloud. Then I got really mad, looked at my bookshelf full of Baen spines, and entered. And won. That experience was the highlight of my year. And I got to meet Larry Correia and he said lovely stuff about my writing even though I’m a woman!

    I will be following this…

  72. After six years of stalking a friend of mine, you’re going to lecture someone on ethics? Seriously?

    You’ve been banned from numerous blogs, yet keep showing up, but you’re going to talk about ethics?

    You’ve taken quotes from people, out of context, and tried to stir up hate against people you dislike, and you’re going to talk about ethics?

    Andrew, you really do need to get some serious help. You have yet to show that you understand the first thing about ethical behavior, so I’m going to ignore the hypocrisy, point out that you harassed Vox for five freaking YEARS, so if he in turn made you uncomfortable, so be it. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.

  73. He must’ve gotten caught by one of the hate-mobs he tried to round up when someone actually went and found what his target for harassment said.

    Again.

    Has anybody contacted the police about him violating the cyber-stalking laws again?

  74. I don’t present myself as high status within SFF. I don’t know how you got that idea.

    When I say things like “I asked Teresa what she meant” I mean, I commented politely on her blog, asking her–something anyone ought to be able to manage, though it is easier if you don’t start out upset, and you will be cut more slack if you have some history of commenting there about less controversial topics.

    When I say “Charles Gannon told me” I mean he messaged me politely after I referred to him as a conservative writer here, and we had a pleasant conversation. When he used literary jargon I didn’t understand I said so, and when he dropped back to a lay person’s language, we had an interesting chat for a day or so. He took a quite different approach from the commenters here, which is part of why he doesn’t strike me as a Sad Puppy. I’m sure for him I was one of a thousand people he contacted as damage control, and he probably wouldn’t remember me now, but that’s fine, I don’t expect him to.

    When I ask you whether someone administering the Hugos has told you you’re not welcome, it’s because I read the blogs of a couple of people associated with WorldCon and they seem reasonable and apolitical, and it startles me to see them folded into a grand secret cabal to control the Hugos that is frothing with hate for the Sad Puppies.

    There certainly are people in SF pushing for more inclusion of minority writers and characters–they just don’t seem to move in the same circles as the groups of people who organize the various WorldCons.

    And just as I go to their blogs to read what they have to say, and sometimes comment and remember what they said, and bring it up when you seem to be misrepresenting their views, I come to Brad’s blog and Larry’s blog and the Mad Genius Club to see what Sad Puppies have to say, and sometimes comment, and remember what you say and comment on that to people who seem to be misrepresenting your views. Because I don’t just take somebody else’s word for what you said, even if the somebody else is “on my side.”

    Thank you for your time; I think I have a pretty good cross-section of today’s views at this point.

  75. Entirely possible, Foxfier.

    I’ve seen a few places where his attempts at crowdsourcing hate hasn’t really worked out in his favor.

    But his threats against someone’s children are irrelevant. What matters is Vox sent an email to a friend of his and *gasp* talked to them!

  76. “Thank you for your time; I think I have a pretty good cross-section of today’s views at this point.”

    Sure you do. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

  77. Gerrib has better things to do on a Sunday night than to follow comment threads on blogs.

    Now that I’m back, Teresa Neilsen Hayden did NOT say “don’t go to Worldcon and you’ve not been part of that culture for a number of years, you don’t qualify as a “real fan” in their definition.”

    She DID say what has been told to you, Brad, for years – if you want to vote, buy a membership. Nothing is and never was stopping you or anybody else from buying a supporting or attending membership.

    She and others also said that if the Hugos are a “nail house” then maybe y’all might want to build your own clubhouse. As I said, if Dragon*Con is the bee’s knees for SF, why don’t they have an award?

    Lastly, I personally know Lynn and Michael Thomas, of “Chicks Dig Doctor Who” fame. They are local to me and attend the same cons. If there had been a whispering campaign to get her a Hugo, I would have been one of the whisper-ees. I wasn’t.

  78. Kate Julicher: had the same experience myself. That’s why I’m submitting to the Baen Fantasy Award this year. 🙂

  79. Has anybody contacted the police about him violating the cyber-stalking laws again?

    He’s not violating the cyberstalking laws so long as he stays off my blog. We’ll just have to wait long enough for him to build up a nice fat trail of libel and malice all over the Internet then go after him in civil court. He’s retarded enough to keep going even though I’ve warned him that will eventually be the consequence. We’ll see how long grandma can afford to pay the lawyers.

    the woman Vox harassed in those two posts I linked to is very kind, talented, and idealistic, and there was no reason for Vox to go after her.

    Emma claimed she didn’t even know you, Andrew. Whatever else she may be, she’s a liar.

    Well, somebody needs to explain it, because that is not okay.
    Anyone with ethics should not buy from Castalia. Let the authors know: Drop Castalia or don’t get my money.

    Malice with intent to harm. Very useful stuff. I’ll look forward to sending that one to your lawyers for review someday.

  80. Teresa Neilsen Hayden did NOT say “don’t go to Worldcon and you’ve not been part of that culture for a number of years, you don’t qualify as a “real fan” in their definition.”

    “The Hugos don’t belong to the set of all people who read the genre; they belong to the worldcon, and the people who attend and/or support it. The set of all people who read SF can start their own award.”
    – Teresa Nielsen Hayden, March 29, 2015, 03:43 PM

  81. Pingback: Brad Torgersen on the Treason of the Gatekeepers | John C. Wright's Journal

  82. Oh, right. “Make your own award and stop sullying ours with your barbarian hordes!” goes the cry.

    And we certainly can do that. But why in the hell should we ghettoize ourselves?

    Newsflash: the award “belongs” to whoever buys a damn membership and cares enough to nominate and vote for it. And if you’ve suddenly got more people doing that, it’s good for the Hugos, good for WorldCon, and good for SFF. Especially if you actually mean it about “diversity.” The more, the merrier.

    Or does “diversity” only count when it’s “diverse” people you approve of? Practically speaking, the more people you have, the more diverse it’s going to be, just as a numbers game. I mean, come on. As the old and cranky fundy in the room, I’m the diverse one in SFF.

    Also, it’s beautiful to see Clamps showing up on a completely unrelated blog to Vox’s and demanding that we all “explain” him. Like we’re responsible for him or something. And no one bites, and he stomps his feet and continues his demands. Next thing you know, he’ll show up at mine and we’ll have another 800-comment post where he gets whacked around like a cheap pinata. *deadpan* Won’t that be fun.

    And then Cat retires from the thread without acknowledging that people can like and read and write all kinds of things, because she can’t bring herself to admit that her point (such as it was) got skewered good and proper by actual logic and human nature.

  83. Well, Mr. Weimer, then I have a very simple question for you: given your conspicuous positions on racism and sexism, how do you justify your sympathetic relationship with Requires Hate while lamenting the racism and sexism of VD? That’s aside from 50 other morons like that you support.

    Exactly what definition of the words “racism” and “sexism” do you employ that can at once embrace Requires Hate’s “… we consider buffaloes especially stupid as animals go. The perfect analogy for white men” but reject VD’s use of the term “half-savage”? Am I crazy or would an anti-racist reject both? Or how about this radical idea of live and let live. And please don’t come at me with the SFWA Twitter feed garbage. I wasn’t born yesterday.

    I have also made it clear time and again that endless phrases like “White Dude parade,” “old white dudes,” and “cracka ass cracka” are not political expressions but one’s of a biological hatred similar to anti-Semitism. I mean, have you ever looked at who’s saying that shit? Considering how easily you embrace the idea of a pervasive biological hatred of women by men – namely misogyny – you should have no problem seeing my point about politics vs. sheer hatred. It is not “conservative” to not want to be called racial slurs. And am I supposed to be such a dullard I mindless accept there is no such thing as misandry? Are women inhuman? So which is more likely: that 3.5 billion men have a biological hatred of women, or that a statistical zero slice of America consisting of mentally ill ideologically driven women hate men?

    I have also made it clear what SJWs are: intersectional gender feminists, which I regard as a racist, sexist, supremacist cult, and have provided ample proof they are. Given your own double standards which are typical of that cult, yes, anything that throws the concept of fair play to the side of the road while justifying rancid racially segregated spaces by morons who call white people “sour dough-faced” will in fact destroy any society it touches, large or small. Aren’t you now complaining about the new Indiana law out of one side of your mouth while supporting the same thing in principle within SFF out of the other? No reviewing white people? What the fucking hell are you even thinking about supporting that stinking ideology?

    “It is no coincidence that my book review column features no white male authors” says Sunil Patel at Lightspeed. Well done says Paul Weimer. Fuck you both, says I.

    Patel has that Orwellian talent common to all morons when he calls that “Promoting diversity.” Patel isn’t even as far advanced as the Library of Alexandria let alone our Constitution.

    So, you in fact share my belief in comments section after comments section over the last 3 years. The difference is you have double standards for identical behaviors which let anyone who isn’t a straight white male off the hook. Without law any culture will fall, so “destroy” is an apt word, unless you think America can survive without equal protection and our Constitution. People like you have gutted SFF like a fish in the amazing space of only 3 or 4 years; a 100 year legacy gone.

    What I have laid out for you is amazingly simple. It is no different than a strike zone in baseball. Take that away so that one side benefits while the other suffers and baseball is destroyed in 2 seconds.

    I have never said Sad Puppies is on the side of the angels so it is impossible for me to be mistaken in that regard. What I have repeatedly said and what I am saying now is “compared to what? Compared to who?” Plus they don’t ban me over nothing, or even pre-ban me.

    VD is racist? Compared to who – N.K. Jemisin? L. Correia is a sexist? Compared to who? Kate Elliott, Kameron Hurley, Aliette de Bodard, Ann Leckie? The funny thing there is I’ve already run out of names for so-called “reactionaries” and Larry’s needs SJW scare quotes even to get to number two. On the other hand I could name 100 SJWs who violate your own so-called principles regarding themes such as harassment, sexual insults, racial insults, public collusion to racially and sexually discriminate and much more – all documented in quotes, not the scare quotes you use or the baseless innuendoes Damien Walter used to libel L. Correia. It is you who are part of an ideology. I am part of an innocent demographic spike no different than the also innocent 78% black NBA. Saying that accidental white spike in SFF is an ideology of racial and male supremacy is nonsense. Of course a racist and sexist cult is going to maintain that.

    I do not have a “political” side. I am an umpire. Try it on for size. Goose/gander, rules, the Golden Rule, tit for tat, law – call it whatever you want. The truth is there seems hardly a blog post in SFF that defames ethnic Europeans, men and heterosexuals where you don’t have an amazing ability to appear in the comments section and say well done. I do not defend conservatism, I defend “compared to what?” This is so simple: group defamation is always wrong – period. There is no power-privilege “punching up” bullshit. That is a con game bigots use for the weak-minded. There is no such thing in our court system, and thank god for that.

    You have ideologically aligned yourself with a cult which hates men, whites and heterosexuals and they make no secret of that disdain. I have ideologically aligned myself with the 14th Amendment. If you’re on the other side of that you yourself did that, not me. As long as you have a here-today, gone-tomorrow definition of “racism” which amazingly never benefits straight white men you’ll stay on that side. I for one have not ceded my rights to be treated as a human because of Jim Crow anymore than black folks have for a convenience store robbery last night. Contrary to what Mikki Kendall writes I am no one’s “murdering kin.” Only Stormfront would say the latter, or an intersectional gender feminist the former. Same principle, a thing which escapes you. I laugh every time I see Kendall call someone a “racist.” Really? Compared to what exactly?

    It is ridiculous to say an umpire is “harping” throughout a game or that our Constitution is “harping” about law. Of course I always say the same thing. That’s the issue, that’s the point. Fair play. Live and let live. People are people. That’s not rocket science. The thing is you want to play baseball without a strike zone and converse without a dictionary. How’s that working out?

  84. Pingback: Sad Puppies Update: Honesty from the Other Side | Monster Hunter Nation

  85. Also: The Hugos don’t belong to the set of all people who read the genre; they belong to the worldcon, and the people who attend and/or support it. –TNH

    This is certainly so, as a matter of the Worldcon rules. But bringing more of the “set of all people who read SFF” into the fold of “set of Worldcon supporters/attenders” would seem to be a good thing rather than a bad thing. And since literally anyone can buy a supporting Worldcon membership, those two sets are not, as a practical matter, all that far apart.

    You’d think they’d welcome more participation rather than denigrating it. The cash infusion, if nothing else, has to be beneficial. And everything should be turned upside down every once in awhile. It lets in air and light.

  86. Gerrib,

    As I told Mamatas, “real fans” get to like The Avengers but liking The Avengers doesn’t mean you get to be a “real fan.” In other words, it’s cool for SMOFs and their ideological children to like comic book movies, but if you like comic book movies you’re still not part of the “in” crowd at Worldcon. It’s a one-way barrier. “We get to like what we like, and we’re REAL FANS, but you don’t get to be a real fan for liking what you like.”

  87. :::lurking device disengaged:::

    Wow. The Hugo Nominations haven’t even been announced, but already the vitriol is flying.

    I’ve been reading SF/F for 40 years, and going to cons for 30 of those years; I’ve even helped run a few. And I have nominated and voted in the Hugos, including this years. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen this much attention being paid to a POTENTIAL ballot, much less a nominated slate.

    I find it amusing that for years, certain SMOFs were decrying the lack of interest in voting, and wanted to find ways to broaden participation in the Hugos. Now that Sad Puppies has helped do just that, suddenly many of those same fans are wringing their hands and worrying about the “integrity” of award. Be careful what you wish for, I suppose.

    For my part… I for one am glad the Sad Puppies have had even this much success. Not just because I liked a lot of the stories they suggested, but because it’s gotten more fans talking and getting involved in the process than anything else I’ve seen in years. And for the health of the Hugos as an institution, I think that’s a good thing.

    Looking forward to the finalist announcements this weekend, and to the discussions the nominations will bring.

  88. ::holds keyboard in hand, full extension of the arm::
    Torgerson… Out.
    ::Drops keyboard, strolls off stage like a boss::

  89. Pingback: Afternoon coffee 2015-03-30 – Defending the nail house against Sad Puppies | Mangy Dog

  90. Brad – “We” GAVE The Avengers a Hugo, a fact your initial post ignored, but apparently that’s not good enough. “We” have stormtroopers at our conventions, but that’s not good enough. “We” let anybody come, but unless “we” roll out a special red carpet for Campbell nominee Larry Correia and Brad Torgersen it’s not enough. Oh, and while “we’re” rolling out this red carpet “we” have to listen to you accuse us of being frauds who run whisper campaigns, but heaven forbid anybody get upset at an overt campaign.

    The thing of it is, there is no “we” and “you.” We’re all just fans, and Teresa Nielsen Hayden can no more kick you out of fandom than can the King of Siam. And fandom started over people debating, sometimes passionately, what they did and did not like about a given piece of fiction. If you’re not prepared to have somebody say something you loved sucked, you’re in the wrong place.

    You might also remember that there’s a hell of a lot more work involved in handing out a Hugo than talking trash on the Internet. If you’re not prepared to VOLUNTEER the time and effort to make that happen, showing a little respect and gratitude to those who do would be common courtesy.

    Finally, Brad, your finely-honed sense of victimization is pushing my buttons. If you want unconditional love, buy a dog. If you want to be treated with respect, take a page from Gannon’s book and stop slagging people who disagree with you.

  91. Gerrib,

    You still don’t get it. This is not a “show us the boxes to check so we can go neener neener” thing. SP3 is dealing with a state of mind. The SMOF attitude. It goes back decades. It revolves around people who are possessive of Worldon (and the Hugos) and Teresa let the mask slip with her little comment about how “the wider readership can go start its own award.” Nobody says crap like that unless they’re playing according to the “inside and outside” rules. In Teresa’s mind, she is all inside. She is not alone at WSFS in this sentiment. And if Worldcon did not host the Hugos and claim the Hugos are “science fiction’s most prestigious award” for everybody (it’s right on the Hugo web site if you doubt me) probably SP3 would not be necessary. But as long as the “in”-minded (like Teresa) want to be able to decide (to the exclusion of the “outsiders”) what is and is not Hugo-worthy (for all SF/F consumers and fans everywhere) then SP3 is obviously necessary, and we will keep doing SP4, SP5, and on into the future. Until we run out of juice, or the Teresas of the world run out of juice. Guess who is younger, and has more fun with this project? In the end, the snooty-snooty nose-in-the-air attitude speaks for itself. We didn’t make it up. We dared to call it out publicly. And now people are freaking out and re-writing history and backpedaling. While quietly griping to themselves about how SP3 is “ruining” things.

  92. Brad,

    I think it’s safe to say that no matter what you say, Gerrib won’t accept it. He’s got his mind made up. He walked into the discussion with it made up, and he’ll continue to view things through that lens.

    No matter what, the Hugo’s are fine as they are and we’re all a bunch of poopyheads for trying to change that.

    Despite what Teresa said rather publicly. That’s irrelevant, because reasons.

  93. Tell you what – I’ll let Teresa speak for herself:
    Putting out a formal slate of nominees is where people start to get uncomfortable. First, if you simply love those works and creators, why not just communicate that enthusiasm to others? Why make it a “these and no others” fixed ballot? It also makes an uneasy combination with rhetoric about increasing reader participation in the Hugos. “Let’s bring in a wider range of readers so they can vote for our narrow range of preferred nominees” is bound to be a problematic position. (emphasis mine)

    Second, while there’s nothing wrong in theory with supporting a specific short list of nominees, pre-made slates can also be used like an old-fashioned voter palm-card list by people who don’t follow SF, have no real personal preferences, and wouldn’t normally vote. Pushing a pre-made slate isn’t necessarily evidence that something like that is happening, but it opens the door to letting that happen.

    The next one is in my opinion where the behavior goes over the line: openly inviting gamergaters to buy memberships and vote the SP agenda, specifically in order to f*ck up the Hugos and stick it to the SJWs.

    Having read last year’s VD story, I can only conclude it was included specifically to “stick it to the SJWs.” Brad, you may not like being tied to VD, but when you picked Sad Puppies as a title you did all the linkage yourself.

  94. Having read “If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love”, I can only conclude that it was to “stick it to people who want science fiction or fantasy in their science fiction and fantasy”.

    See? Two can play this game.

  95. GamerGate is made up of gamers, and haming is the heaviest SFF medium out there, hands down.

    Why shouldn’t they bote if they so choose?

    As for this and no other, well sorry if I have to laugh.

    As much as you comment here and on others blogs of people you clearly dislike, you obviously missed how diverse a lot we really are. Herding Cats is used as a description fir a reason.

    And for ‘voting cards’ hogwash I say. If they weren’t reading Larry, Brad, or any of the others they wouldn’t know about it so clearly they are SFF fans. That’s just the wrong kind of fans thing poorly disguised.

  96. I don’t mind being linked to Vox, because I don’t hate and fear Vox like a little schoolgirl who’s been stung by a wasp. Vox has made some statements that make me raise an eyebrow, but I don’t run screaming from him with my fingers in my ears, crying, “BAD MAN! BAD!! AAAAAAAAAAAH!”

  97. Having read “If You Were a Dinosaur, My Love”, I can only conclude that it was to “stick it to people who want science fiction or fantasy in their science fiction and fantasy”.

    See? Two can play this game.

    Indeed. One might also conclude that “The Water That Falls On You From Nowhere” was a very up-front “stick it” story, in the same manner. Knowing TOR.COM, they hang their social justice cred on a shingle at the door. Because somebody has to rescue the genre from all the dirty nasty straight white capitalist cisnormative men! Frankly, that story belonged in an issue of The Sun. In fact, I don’t know why the author didn’t send it to The Sun. It would have been an instant pick-up for them, and would have been in the running for bigger mainstream literary prizes as a result.

  98. Gerrib makes it seem like any video gamer who doesn’t like being profiled and defamed by lunatic feminist supremacists reverts to an assassin.

  99. @ Cat Faber: Julie, if what will make you feel invited is everyone ignoring the past behavior of the Sad Puppies (nominating a work that wasn’t worthy of an award) I’m afraid that’s not going to happen.

    Who says it wasn’t worthy of an award? You? Given that “If you were a Gila Monster My Love” won a Nebula, I’d suggest that “Worthy of an award” is a rather elastic concept…

  100. Gerrib, you and TNH are both so full of shit your eyeballs are brown. Sad Puppies has not put forth a slate and said “vote only for these.” What we did was put forth a slate that said “We like these, we think these are good works and deserving of a Hugo, read these and if you agree, vote for them.”

    You are the ones pushing exclusivity, we are demanding diversity. You elitist jackasses.

    THAT Sir, is slagging your opponents, respectfully disagreeing as Brad has done is not. Troll.

  101. I used to be a fairly rabid fan and a decently well-known filker, but I got tired of having my ethnic origins (lots of different European ones) and religion (Catholic) mocked at conventions by “nice” people. I got alarmed by the lack of concern for decent public behavior in the public hallways of hotels, and the way room parties weren’t being run in a safe way that stayed within fire codes. I was disturbed by public fannish support for obviously self-destructive behavior. But saying anything about this was disapproved. It was prudish and overly conventional. It took the joy out of being a fan, even when I went places where the conventions and the fannish company were reasonable and sane. (Too used to flinching to be able to relax.)

    At the same time, I got sick of not having anything decent to read that was new, except once or twice a year. I like my old favorites, and I was disturbed to see many of them disappear into midlist hell. For the most part, there were no new favorites to be found (until I discovered indies).

    So I have pursued other interests.

    Sad Puppies is getting the same kind of flak that other perfectly normal fannish groups and campaigns have faced whenever they confront the current unhealthy state of organized sf fandom.

    The “insider” disease isn’t new, either. When I joined the committee for a convention more than twenty years ago, there was a huge disconnect between people on the committee who thought that it was perfectly normal to send a press release to the newspaper event announcement section and put up flyers in libraries and bookstores, and those who claimed that any announcement to the world outside fandom was not just useless but dangerous and pernicious. Anybody new who showed up without being a shepherded friend of a friend would inevitably cause trouble or not have a good time.

    The sad thing is that the naysayers were not entirely wrong. Most conventions do not wholeheartedly want newbies to attend. They do not provide much in the way of info for fans who are new to conventions, other than the program book or perhaps a panel. Often registration desk people or other folks in line help out with orientation, but it really shouldn’t have to be their job.

    I believe this tendency has been much exacerbated by Livejournal and Facebook, with their inherently clique-based version of social media. Those who used to be ignored or mocked are now attacked as non-persons. Some people routinely get upset that their conventions are discovered by outsiders. (But they don’t institute their own invitation-only “private party” conventions or relaxacons, which have long been a thing for those truly concerned with privacy or shyness or keeping cons intimate.) No, they want the newbies’ money (once), but they don’t want to do the work of helping out.

    My own attitude is that all fans should always want to help fellow fans find fun and friends. Sad Puppies is directing people to sf/f that provides solid enjoyment, and that is what is important and useful. The fact that it is controversial to do this — the fact that this is disliked and its proponents hated — is a sign that too many fans have forgotten what fandom is all about.

    Maureen S. O’Brien

  102. Patrick: not only that, Larry mortgaged some of his book bomb life bar so that the suggested works could be PURCHASED and MONEY could flow to the AUTHORS. Imagine that, the mean horrible evil nasty terrible Sad Puppies, trying to actually help authors and readers connect, for fun and profit. SCANDAL!!!

  103. “Putting out a formal slate of nominees is where people start to get uncomfortable.”\

    The world does not exist to make “people” (specifically, Teresa Nielsen Hayden) comfortable.

    Gotta love the way that they always appoint themselves defenders of “women” or “minorities” or “people” against “The Man”. No one could possibly be more “The Man” in the SF world than the Nielsen Haydens.

  104. I am boycotting boxing until they introduce white diversity into the middle-weight divisions.

    Disclaimer: I am not a white supremacist or a racialist but just want fun for all humans and justice too and, oh yeah, inclusiveness and by the way Bollywood what’s up with all the frickin’ Hindus? Is that normal. Am I to believe there are no Norwegians in New Delhi? I have it on good authority from MedievalPoC that sub-Saharan Africans lived in Bohemia and actually created all forms of European music because you see, the German-born Beethoven’s ancestors once lived in Belgium, and Belgium was once occupied by the Spanish who in turn were once occupied by N. African Muslims. That donkey-driven logic train brings you to Gibraltar rather than any other place in Spain and from there it’s just a hop, skip and a jump to Africa, over the Saharan desert, and into sub-Saharan Africa and the natural “syncopation… intrinsic and integral to Black people’s music making.” “Thus, Beethoven inherited this Black Spanish strain.”

    Just ask C. C. Finlay, the editor of the Magazine of F&SF who linked to that donkey-driven logic train.

    “CC Finlay ‏@ccfinlay Sep 29 Beethoven was white-washed! This is the first time I’ve heard the argument or seen the evidence, which is persuasive. http://open.salon.com/blog/ronp01/2009/09/27/the_african_heritage_of_ludwig_van_beethoven …”

    So what’s up, Bollywood, or don’t you understand the word “persuasive?”

    PS: I just love rocket ships ‘n’ planets ‘n’ shit. Don’t you?

  105. hate and fear Vox like a little schoolgirl who’s been stung by a wasp I don’t hate or fear Vox Day. I think he’s wrong and has monetized being obnoxious on the Internet.

    Vox has made some statements that make me raise an eyebrow well, when somebody tells me on their public blog (in answer to a specific question by me) that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote, I don’t raise an eyebrow. I think they are by definition sexist. When somebody says that blacks can’t manage a technological civilization, I don’t raise an eyebrow. I think they are a self-defined racist.

    My point is, Vox has gone out of his way to piss off everybody except white men. It should not be a surprise that everybody he’s so attacked (and some that he didn’t) want nothing to do with him.

    Larry Niven said don’t stand next to a man throwing stuff at armed men, or words to that effect. Seems to me, Brad, Vox is doing the throwing and you’re standing next to him.

  106. Profit is bad or something.

    What’s funny is the opinion that we all did things last year just because Larry told us. About the most we did was buy because he suggested it. After all, we like Larry’s stuff so our tastes probably run along similar lines. That’s where it ends.

    However, some people act – if they don’t outright think – that we’re all just mindless automatons marching to whatever beat is set for us. /eye roll/

  107. ” Seems to me, Brad, Vox is doing the throwing and you’re standing next to him.”

    TNH and PNH see nothing wrong with standing next to Stalinists. Literally standing next to them. Marching with them. Chanting with them.

    You know, the biggest mass-murderers in history?

    Why is that okay?

  108. And don’t miss C. C. Finlay’s feminist review of mutants:

    http://ccfinlay.com/blog/new-x-men-movie-same-old.html

    [Trigger warning for massive feminism, morbid retardation, disgusting men, patriarchy, sexism, mutants, Vietnam, Paris, lack of female agency, Bechdal implosion, a lesbian actor playing a heterosexual, men-folks, marginalization, jazz hands, vulgar gendered slang, male-gaze, rape culture, crass stupidity, white men, colonialism, partial nudity, switch-blade knuckles, ableism, the ’70s, plagiarizing the Moody Blues, dwarves, British people, ‘gifted youngsters,’ Haile Berry’s low-pressure powers, a bi-sexual women playing a heterosexual, Fan Bingbing, and marketing]

  109. Chris your McCarthyism is showing.

    Business relationships are neccessarily different from personal and familial ones. There is a reason, to use a recent example from my pen work, they discourage flirting at work, or sharing overmuch of yourself. The other people there are there to work, and cannot easily decide who else is there.

    Pity the writing community as a whole seems to forget that at times.

    I would have thought Harlan Ellison would have provided them enough practice, but nope.

  110. Oh my God, Clamps, would you just stop. No. One. Cares. About your stupid, stupid feud with Vox. Bitch about it in your own journal, and stop cluttering up topics that have absolutely nothing to do with it. We all get it. You think Vox is a bad man we should feel bad for knowing, reading, or enjoying in any way. But your one-trick pony commits the cardinal sin of being boring. I thought I had an innate inability to just let shit go, but, honey, you’ve got me beat.

    On topic: However, some people act – if they don’t outright think – that we’re all just mindless automatons marching to whatever beat is set for us. /eye roll/ Well. That’s because they’re projecting.

  111. “My point is, Vox has gone out of his way to piss off everybody except white men.”

    Hmmmm. Now who does that sound like? Let me think on it a bit – it’ll come to me…

    Ummmmm…. ahhhhhhh.

    Man, it just won’t come to me. Who is it who goes out of their way to piss off everybody but gays, non-whites and women?

    Oh, man, it’s so frustrating I can’t… oooohhhh, DAMN, it just won’t come to me. Dammit!!!

    Sorry. Sorry everybody.

    Thought I had it there for a bit but it slipped away.

  112. Gerrib: I’ve said it before, and I will say it again. I’d rather laugh with the sinners, than cry with the saints. Vox isn’t perfect. But I’d rather stand next to Vox (and get hit with an occasional piece of rotten fruit) than stand next to an SJW SMOF who commands me to hurl rotten fruit at all designated targets — innocent or no — in order to show sufficient allegiance to The Cause™ and be a good “ally” who hates the correct people because I was told to hate them by my moral superiors. I tend to keep my own counsel, about who I have problems with. The more people demand I hate Vox, the more inclined I am to tell those people to go fuck themselves.

  113. You know what’s amazing to me. Nobody on the “we are the elite fandom” side has noticed something REALLY important. Literary fandom, literary SF and cons are DYING people. My local con, with a history going back over five decades did not happen this year. this was one of the two NYC cons, Lunacon. The other, ICON is already essentially gone. As for books, well, as Dave Freer puts it, sales are pathetic. All this SJW crap is NOT helping. All the message fiction and other stuff is just a turnoff. We’ve lost the vision and well if we don’t do something to get it back, it won’t matter about the Hugos or Worldcon in five years because they won’t be happening anymore.

  114. I don’t hate or fear Vox Day. I think he’s wrong and has monetized being obnoxious on the Internet.

    Of course you fear me, Gerrib. You even ran away like a little bitch rather than answer a simple yes or no question about a point that you raised. You’re an intellectually overmatched coward, and both John C. Wright and I have demonstrated that.

    I think they are by definition sexist. When somebody says that blacks can’t manage a technological civilization, I don’t raise an eyebrow. I think they are a self-defined racist.

    You can think whatever you like. You can call me whatever you like. The problem is that what you think does not make me incorrect.

    It should not be a surprise that everybody he’s so attacked (and some that he didn’t) want nothing to do with him.

    My beliefs and my opinions are not an attack. The truth is what it is. Sometimes it is unpleasant. But stating 2+2=4 is not an attack. Not even if this deeply offends the people who feel very strongly that 2+2=purple.

    I wish you truly wanted nothing to do with me. I didn’t invite you to my blog. I didn’t want you deceitfully blathering away there. But if you again prove yourself to be a liar and show up on my blog, you will be summarily spammed.

  115. who commands me to hurl rotten fruit at all designated targets — innocent or no Nobody is commanding you to hurl fruit. You’re the one hurling – accusing me (among others) of voting based on some political checklist. Nobody is actually asking that you like “SJW stuff” – merely that you not throw a hissy fit when something you classify as such gets published.

    I was told to hate them by my moral superiors. Nobody is telling you to hate anybody. They are, however, pointing out that if you stand next to a racist and a sexist, people might ask if you are racist and/or sexist.

    about who I have problems with. I can only judge a man by what he does and what he says, and so far, I have seen no indication whatsoever that you have the least problem with Vox.

  116. Vox:
    You even ran away like a little bitch rather than answer a simple yes or no question about a point that you raised no, I said that, at the time you asked, I was not prepared to answer. I had also clearly stated that I had not finished reading the work in question. Then you banned me.

    Having since finished the work, I posted my opinion. For those not clicking through, your definition of avoiding social justice involves not telling the truth about history but modifying it to conform to your ideas of what the past should have been like. So, by your definition, yes it was SJW. By my definition, it was merely historically truthful.

  117. Mr. Gerrib you have publicly stated you believe in white male privilege. No one who believes in that in SFF does not act on that in terms of diminishing that white male presence in terms of what is reviewed, read, promoted, nominated and awarded. A belief in white privilege is the same as believing women, PoC and gays are unfairly marginalized.

    The evidence for that is overwhelming. If I had a thousand dollars for every Tweet I’ve seen hyping gay this, PoC that, women over here, I’d have my own island. To me, that is grotesque bigotry and supremacism. Conversely, out of those hundreds of Tweets, I’ve yet to see one hyping books because they are white, male or heterosexual.

    So you do in fact not only vote on a political checklist, but for essentially no reason, since the white hetero patriarchy you envision doesn’t even exist. The fact you think it normal and true to reward fiction by virtue of skin and sex does not change anything. You are not part of a meritocracy but of identity fiction and you pie-chart work as sure as I’m sitting here.

  118. believe in white male privilege = it’s easier to be a white male than anything else. Being a white male, I’ve noticed that. (Nobody wonders if I’m an affirmative action hire or if I’m going on maternity leave.)

    Recognizing that one has been given advantages by accident of birth (and not just race – for example, my parents are still happily married) does not mean that I then give out awards for best fiction based on race or sex.

  119. “They are, however, pointing out that if you stand next to a racist and a sexist, people might ask if you are racist and/or sexist.”

    What about standing next to a Stalinist?

  120. I mean, Vox Day hasn’t actually lynched anybody, while the Stalinists have most definitely murdered millions of people in cold blood.

    Why is saying mean things on the internet worse than murder, Gerrib?

  121. What about standing next to a Stalinist? – A link or some evidence, or am I supposed to take the word of a three-initial guy on the Internet?

    In any event, yes, if they are standing next to Stalinists, one may ask if they are one. Why don’t you drop in on Making Light and ask?

  122. Why is saying mean things on the internet worse than murder, Gerrib? If you think a murder has been committed, perhaps you should call the police.

  123. Yeah, it’s so easy being a white male at Lightspeed, where some fuck won’t even review you. Or at the SFWA, where the past two presidents pass along demonization theories like white privilege at the behest of ditzes like Mary Ann Mohanraj who feels all awful she’s forced to live in a white supremacy rather than the paradise of non-binary Sri Lanka. I’m sure I could get a just and fair hearing at Tor if they hadn’t banned me for objecting to anti-white, anti-male bigotry. Tell me all about how being white is the path to happiness in your gentrified KKK. For people who want to abolish gender they seem to see it just fine outside their moronic SF novels.

  124. James May – would you like some cheese with that whine? Seriously, dude, the last two straight white male presidents of SFWA hurt your fee-fees?

    I review self-published and small press stuff. If you have something to be reviewed, I’ll give it a go – cgerrib at aol dot com.

  125. Considering what’s happening at Comic Con, NY Comic Con, Dragoncon and other genre related cons around the country literary SF cons should be piling them in. And the SF section should be the largest in the bookstores. The fact that both are shrinking says volumes about the people running SF publishing and events like Worldcon. The likes of the Neilson Haydens have a lot to answer for.

  126. I love you, Gerrib. I really do. I love it when my god-given inalienable rights are reduced to “fee-fees.”

    I’m not a writer so SJWs can’t touch me. But if I were, I’d take a page from Peter Hamilton and Jack McDevitt and stay as far from core SFF as I could. That doesn’t mean I like being defamed any more than gay folks or Jews do. The idea there’s some privilege or victim measurement that somehow diminishes my own individual rights is loony. I have the same right not to be defamed for being white as a black person does for being black. And you’ll notice that although SJWs hate me, I never indulge in group defamations like SJWs do. That’s because people are people, whether they’re making tortora reed boats on Lake Titicaca or have a small store in Abu Simbel.

    I know that because I’ve talked to each and had plenty of laughs doing it too. Would that SJWs were as gracious as those folks were.

  127. god-given inalienable rights I fail to find an inalienable right to post to tor.com, or get reviewed at Lightspeed.

    want to abolish gender who wants to abolish gender? I thought the point of Ancillary Justice was that an AI might not be able to distinguish or even care about human genders.

  128. Now you’re just being disengenuous. You know damn well people don’t have right to be reviewed. The thing is, were I a writer and not reviewed the last thing I’d do is what feminist lunatics do and pie-chart reviews across a spectrum (which they do at Lightspeed) and then conclude white patriarchy at work.

    That would be totally different if an ideological white patriarchy announced – as did Patel – they are racially and sexually discriminating. In short, feminist morons conclude they are being discriminated against without proof other than meaningless demographics and then announce they are pointedly doing what they say is wrong. That’s a lot of stupid to unpack.

    I do have the right to not be racially and sexually defamed. I don’t ask the permission of you or anyone else to assert this is the case; it just is. Funny how you don’t even recognize – or perhaps just not care about – your own Constitution.

    As for Ancillary Justice and gender abolitionists, read your Judith Butler or #JustListen. For more on feminist idiocy, read this remarkable series of Tweets. How would you like to be a white male SFF author and come under the scrutiny of self-described feminist Niall Harrison at Strange Horizons. SJWs may have a right to discriminate, but they don’t have the right to say they’re not doing that and a book display is. These are some truly daffy people who have no principles whatsoever to measure right and wrong, and that includes whatever you use for a moral ethos, which may as well be spin the bottle:

    “WaterstonesNewcastle ‏@WaterstonesNewc Feb 25 Don’t know what to read now you’ve finished Game Of Thrones? Check out the new kids in Fantasy! #books #fantasy pic.twitter.com/HVPqCdGEKG”

    “mollydot ‏@mollydot Feb 25 @WaterstonesNewc Missing Robin Hobb.”

    “WaterstonesNewcastle ‏@WaterstonesNewc Feb 25 @mollydot it’s for new school fantasy authors, the incredible @robinhobb’s first book was 1995 (I think) we’re big fans!”

    “mollydot ‏@mollydot Feb 25 @WaterstonesNewc GRRM’s not new either!”

    “WaterstonesNewcastle ‏@WaterstonesNewc Feb 25 @mollydot it’s a ‘ if you’ve read GoT, then you’ll love these guys!’ sort of table”

    “Niall Harrison ‏@niallharrison Feb 25 @WaterstonesNewc @mollydot Could do with some people who aren’t guys, though? Elizabeth Bear, Kameron Hurley, NK Jemisin, Helen Lowe?”

    “WaterstonesNewcastle ‏@WaterstonesNewc Feb 25 @niallharrison @mollydot alas, we’re limited for space, could only choose 6 titles so we went for the bestselling ‘new’ fantasy authors!”

    “mollydot ‏@mollydot Feb 25 @WaterstonesNewc @niallharrison But why are you assuming that people are only interested in one gender? Rec women for GRRM, men for Canavan.”

    “Niall Harrison ‏@niallharrison Feb 25 @WaterstonesNewc If your argument is that most exciting epic fantasy of the last decade is all by white men, I don’t think that’s tenable.”

    “WaterstonesNewcastle ‏@WaterstonesNewc Feb 25 @niallharrison we mean new like past 5-10 years, as opposed to a legend like Raymond E Feist”

    “Niall Harrison ‏@niallharrison Feb 25 C’mon, @WaterstonesNewc, you can do better than that…”

  129. “If you think a murder has been committed, perhaps you should call the police.”

    Translation: you’re not going to answer the question.

    As expected.

    https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

    Those are the people your kind hangs around with, Gerrib. But please do continue to lecture us about how EEEVVVVVILLL Vox Day is.

    “A link or some evidence, or am I supposed to take the word of a three-initial guy on the Internet?”

    It was one of the big “anti-war” protests (which, oddly, have totally disappeared since Obama took office. What’s up with that, by the way?). The Nielsen Haydens were in attendance. It was organized by International ANSWER, which is a Stalinist organization. Several people noted this, and PNH’s response was more or less “Yes, I know who they are, but…..BOOOOOOOOOSH.”

    That was when I stopped using their site and stopped buying any book that either of them had touched.

    I’m not going to bother Googling it. It was an object of some discussion at the time; I’m sure others remember it.

    It would not surprise me if they’d put it down the memory hole by now anyway. They’re good at that.

  130. It takes somebody REALLY full of hate to march with people he says are “wackjobs”:|
    Patrick Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 16, 2003, 10:59 PM:

    Like many other people going to DC on Saturday, I am completely aware of who initially organized this march.

    But they don’t own the antiwar movement. Their foolishness isn’t going to bait us into an outburst of time-wasting sectarianism.

    Note the page I link to above. It tells you everything you need to know about A.N.S.W.E.R.–basically, that they’re a bunch of schismatic authoritarian wackjobs with a talent for getting out in front of mass movements at the right time.
    http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/002255.html#002255

  131. Far better to hang out with the country’s enemies than to admit that the other side may be right. That’s SJW thinking in a nutshell, or nutty as the case may be.

  132. “They’re a bunch of schismatic authoritarian wackjobs ”

    They are Stalinists. Dyed-in-the-wool, murdered-more-people-than-Hitler, unrepentant Stalinists.

    PNH wouldn’t use that excuse for marching at a Klan or Nazi Party-organized rally. Why does he think it’s excusable they’re Stalinists?

  133. SBP, I’ve looked at A.N.S.W.E.R. close up. you are absolutely right about that. In fact I think that they were actual Soviet tools run by the KGB and now the FCD. I’ve been watching their antics in NYC for decades. I would really love to find out how they get those signs printed for those “spontaneous” protests.

  134. SBP – at best, Vox and the Nielsen Haydens are guilty of the same thing – saying nasty things on the Internet. In any event, since PNH explicitly denounced ANSWER, no, he’s not a Stalinist.

    Actually, given what a goat-grope the war in Iraq proved to be, anybody who opposed it at the time looks pretty damn smart now.

    which, oddly, have totally disappeared since Obama took office. – ah, we pulled out of Iraq and are pulling out of Afghanistan? Or, when you’re getting what you wanted, don’t complain.

    I do have the right to not be racially and sexually defamed. No, *I* have the right of free speech, which includes expressing my opinion of you. Now, if you think you can prove actual slander and/or libel, feel free to have your attorney call my attorney.

  135. We trust Sasquan to run their own con without any “helpful advice” from people who think Sasquan is not grown-up enough to manage its own Hugos. A membership is a membership is a membership, and a vote is a vote is a vote. Inventing technical reasons to toss votes is an admission that the defenders of the nail house aren’t interested in a democratic system as much as they’re interested in a system that protects the status quo as they prefer it.

    Dude. You gotta speak their language back at them.

    “Check your Trufan privilege, man.”

  136. As a side note, Mr. Gerrib and Mr. May have demonstrated the primary issue with the two sides of this debate, one that Mr. May has pointed out.
    Both sides are using different dictionaries, and, hence, view the world entirely differently.
    Mr. Gerrib sees Mr. May, a straight white male, complaining about straight white males, and concludes that he is a hypocritical whiner. I am assuming, here, that Mr. Gerrib is not a liar.
    Mr. May, however, is complaining about their ideological positions, which, assuming that he is speaking the truth, an assumption I am happy to make, as founded in reality as Lysenkoism.
    In other words, one side sees the world in terms of European blood nationalism, while the other sees the world in terms of American ideological nationalism.
    I know where I prefer to fly my banner. Ideas are important. Blood ain’t.

  137. ” In any event, since PNH explicitly denounced ANSWER, no, he’s not a Stalinist.”

    No, he didn’t. He phrased it as “time-wasting sectarianism”. That’s not much of a “denouncement”. In fact, it is an admission that he, and they, belong to the same movement, just different sects.

    And he still showed up for their party.

    “ah, we pulled out of Iraq and are pulling out of Afghanistan? ”

    No, we haven’t, and no, we aren’t. Just because the newspapers stopped writing about it doesn’t mean that it’s gone away.

    Did you miss the part where Obama started sending troops back into Iraq?

  138. Seriously, Gerrib. You’re way off into “I don’t even believe my own bullshit” territory here. Tell me that if (let’s say) Ted Cruz had attended (let’s say) a Klan rally that you’d cut him slack for a weak-sauce disclaimer the one that Nielsen Hayden produced.

    I could use a good laugh.

    (of course, there’s only been one senator who was actually involved with the Klan (an official, no less). That would be Robert Byrd, D-W.Va.)

  139. Gerrib doesn’t even the have the brains to figure out what anti-defamation is in a blood libel sense, although he has the Gay and Lesbian Alliance for Anti-Defamation and the Jewish Anti-Defamation League to figure it out. It is not a legal term but a defense against racial profiling by his gentrified KKK of social justice. It is a moral act, not a thing for a courtroom. We have free speech here and we use free speech to fight back. That is why Gerrib is simply too dumb to be spoken to.

    60guilders has it right: I am talking about human rights in the Constitutional sense, not a biological sense. Gerrib and the SJWs have it backwards: they think we’re fighting to maintain some sort of white male supremacy. The funny thing is Gerrib parrots the semantics of a feminist supremacist movement that’s not any different from a ladies division of the KKK. Has that fool never stopped to think who has most promoted the concept of white privilege? It’s the same people who do what bigots always do: they take the worst act of a racial grouping and then say the entire group is “murdering kin,” as if all whites lynched Mike Brown. They even turned a Latino like Zimmerman into a white Hispanic in order to properly perform their racist witchhunts.

  140. It’s been interesting drawing these people out into conversations. I am genuinely amazed at how rockingly stupid they are. But then again maybe I shouldn’t be surprised at anyone dumb enough believe in white privilege, especially when they don’t consider the source of who it is who’s pushing that. It’s like listening to IQ theory about blacks from the KKK. Gerrib didn’t understand Jews an gay folks have a moral right to not be defamed, especially if someone acts on that, such as Lightspeed magazine’s Sunil Patel not reviewing whites cuz they’re privileged racists? They have a legal right to do that, and neo-Nazis have a right to march. So what?

    Weimer didn’t respond here but he was also genuinely perplexed on Twitter at what I wrote. SFF author Scott Lynch backed him up. How do you get that stupid? How does an adult not understand the concept of being fair? How does an adult not understand that if fire burns you it will burn others and so don’t do it? How does an adult not understand the basis of our Constitution, which would supposedly be what all their wailing about social justice is. They don’t even fucking understand their own crusade.

    I’m guessing SJWs got their asses kicked a lot as kids, cuz you can’t run around that clueless, that arrogant, that insulting and not attract that kind of attention. All this stupid explains how these morons essentially look up to their David Dukes as a source of “anti-racism.” Needless to say, looking to K. Tempest Bradford and N.K. Jemisin for anti-racism is like going to a volcano for ice cubes. Sad Puppies came about as a direct result of their rabble-rousing about straight white men and they still don’t get that. What’s it like to be in a KKK and think the exact opposite?

    In my neighborhood we had what was essentially dueling. If you didn’t understand fair play then it was taught to you.

  141. James May:
    Well, Mr. Weimer, then I have a very simple question for you: given your conspicuous positions on racism and sexism, how do you justify your sympathetic relationship with Requires Hate while lamenting the racism and sexism of VD? That’s aside from 50 other morons like that you support.

    @James. In regards to RH, conflicted to be sure. And the hope,however naive, that her actions of the past remain so. Mr Beale’s racism and sexism, however, remains omnipresent.

    As far as the 50 other morons, you probably are lowballing that number.

  142. I’m not familiar with any gorks in the Generic Universal Role-playing system, Clamps. Are they a sub-species of Orc, perhaps?

    Didn’t you learn anything from Harry Potter? Being afraid of someone’s or something’s name only gives them power over you.

    On the other hand, you’re also so far into your delusions that you can’t even keep your own press straight, so would you kindly just go bother someone else? Perhaps someone who actually agrees with you on something?

    (Actually I take it back, there are things you don’t wish on even your enemies. Just go away entirely.)

  143. You know, I think you have actually reached the point where this is an appropriate question.

  144. Of course you do. After six years or more of doing it, you’re probably an expert on the subject.

    But quite playing the victim. No one here’s buying it, Andrew. No one at all.

  145. As opposed to what? Threatening someone’s children?

    Quit pretending you have any moral high ground. You can’t even see it from the moral Death Valley you’re in.

  146. “It means snake, bread, Friday, and that damn dog.” That barely qualified as a sentence.

    I’m not your friend. Nor am I Vox’s mom. Any PI work he does to try and figure out who is stalking him is between him, the people he (apparently briefly) contacted, and the police. (If he broke any laws)

    Since I am also not someone he contacted nor the police (nor do they seem concerned) you can just shove it, especially as the topic at hand is entirely unrelated to your stalking.

  147. And do we know what happened to those young idealistic Welshmen?
    Answer: They saw the cause they believed they fought for betrayed by the people on whose behalf they were fighting, and left Spain bitter and disillusioned.
    I will point out that I have no particular stance on Vox. I will also point out that if that’s all you have in regards to cyberstalking, Vox Day is the worst cyberstalker ever, and needs to report to the head of the cyberstalker’s guild immediately to turn in his badge.

  148. A big difference between Brad’s blog and the TNH pit is that by now NP would be getting dsmvwld. Given Clamp’s tendentiousness, I move for a none binding vote to ban or dsmvwld.

  149. Disemvoweling is just so high school. It reflects worse on the person doing it than the person it is done to.

  150. Nosey Clamps, didn’t I tell you yesterday that you’re done? I don’t know why you’ve made a habit out of pestering Baen authors in this fashion, but your MO is well-known and everyone has the goods on you. Consider yourself finished in this thread.

  151. *quickly snatches the image*

    I have no idea where I can use that, I couldn’t even read it out loud to my husband because the kids will repeat it, but I will find a use for it somewhere… ❤

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  153. “I believe in white male privilege = it’s easier to be a white male than anything else. Being a white male, I’ve noticed that. (Nobody wonders if I’m an affirmative action hire or if I’m going on maternity leave.)

    Recognizing that one has been given advantages by accident of birth (and not just race – for example, my parents are still happily married) does not mean that I then give out awards for best fiction based on race or sex.”

    Curious, Chris (and realizing that this thread is old)… do you realize how those two statements are in conflict with each other? The second is unobjectionable… people have advantages by accident of birth. Who would argue? The first statement is in conflict with the second. It is not easier to be a white male than anything else. Assuming that white men have it easier than anyone else is pretty darn nasty. Yes, you never have to wonder if you’re an affirmative action hire or if you’ll take maternity leave… but if we didn’t *have* affirmative action hires that problem wouldn’t exist… and men are increasingly taking paternity leave. The other accidents of your birth can very easily entirely wipe out your white man privilege. That they didn’t do so simply means that YOUR projecting YOUR privilege on other white men who are far less privileged is sorta kinda… bad. My parents are still happily married… the disadvantages of my being female are almost entirely non-existent to reversed in this day and age… I can get hired when men *won’t* because I’m female. The list of “accidents of birth” advantage and disadvantage people with very little if any relationship to their race, more to other cultural indicators like accents, far far more relationship to their family and how they were raised, and quite a bit to their intellectual ability levels and physical health or disability. And yet… we’re supposed to artificially disadvantage white men (because they are so privileged) in favor of minority women who might have overwhelming “birth” privilege… intact wealthy families with connections, ivy league educations, good health and a quick mind, and the “privilege” of not having to support a family on the pay of a laborer or corporate drone.

    And yet… it’s easier to be a white male than anything else.

    No. It’s not.

  154. “I don’t mind being linked to Vox, because I don’t hate and fear Vox like a little schoolgirl who’s been stung by a wasp. Vox has made some statements that make me raise an eyebrow, but I don’t run screaming from him with my fingers in my ears, crying, “BAD MAN! BAD!! AAAAAAAAAAAH!””

    I had to go back and find this… it so exactly explains how I feel. I long ago… years and years and years… stopped reading VD’s blog because I’d had enough of it even though it was often interesting and challenging. I don’t fear Vox. Why should I? All my parts work and I’m well able to roll my eyes when necessary. That I might feel someone is wrong in part doesn’t mean they never have an interesting idea or, for that matter, aren’t simply interesting because their outlook is so profoundly different from my own. When I hear that women shouldn’t vote I LAUGH because I’ve had the same thought… dear dog help me if I’m told to vote with my lady parts again… reason weeps. The day I can’t deal calmly with a deliberate provocateur’s superior attitude when that person has NO power over me, is the day I take off my big-girl pants and find some pull ups instead.

    The idea that I might become a target for vitriol because I *fail to publicly shun* someone… yes, that makes me angry. That a whole swath of people operate on the theory of group guilt, shunning, punishing those who don’t toe their line and kiss their butts… and then call themselves the Good Guys? Oh, eff you.

  155. I haven’t read a Hugo winner in over 10 years…and I’ve been reading SciFi/Fant for 45 years…SJW ruin everything they touch…

  156. There’s probably one more thing to add to your post to help clarify matters: That the SP efforts were done wholly within the Hugo rules.

    It’s not like SP was a biker gang smashing in the locked front door and started pissing on the plants and raiding the icebox for the last of the YooHoos.

    I think that’s an important point. If the Hugos were meant to be nominated by only the “true fans” who have attended cons and volunteered, then the award should have been set up that way. But it wasn’t, and any argument that it should be is attempting to retcon the reasoning behind it.

    If the people screaming for y’all to get out of their sandbox want that, perhaps they should start their the TruFans and limit membership to their special snowflakes.

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  158. “There’s probably one more thing to add to your post to help clarify matters: That the SP efforts were done wholly within the Hugo rules.”

    They don’t care. A direct quote:

    “There is no way to fight abusive rules-lawyers by writing stricter policies. The only method that has ever worked against abusive rules-lawyers is moderators empowered to say, ‘You’re being an asshole, and now you are banned,’ and powerful gatekeepers behind the moderators supporting them when the rules-lawyers attempt to shriek for redress.”

  159. I’m not breaking out my Data laughing link in two days, but that deserves it.

    So their answer to us complainging about artificial Gatekeepers and insular awards is to want official Gatekeepers and even more insular awards?

    English, mother-hubbard, do you speak it?

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